I'm in the market for my first serious down jacket, which will be used for XC sking and winter camping in Norway. The PHD Hispar jacket looks great, but might be a bit too bulky when packed. Rab Neutrio Plus seems similar, but I've got no idea on how big it actually is. The Infinity is much lighter, but perhaps not warm enough...
So, has anyone used more than one of these and can comment on the difference? How do they compare in warmth and packed volume?
Warmth wise, the infinity endurance is a good way being either of the other two, and I'd suspect the Hispar a bit warmer again. Pack size is going to be ~ proportional to weight, so the Ne+ and Hispar basically the same, and the infinity a bit less.
Having said all that the hispar really is horribly expensive, and designed for very serious mountains etc. Is there any reason you're looking at that and not the Yukon? Thats very light and still definetly warm.
(prob a little more so than the infinity endurance.).
Warmth wise, the infinity endurance is a good way being either of the other two
I assume you meant 'behind' there
The Hispar might be a little warmer than the Neutrino Plus, but its hard to tell. I guess only you know whether the £200 premium you'd pay for it is really worth your while. Whereabouts do you expect to go, and how cold will it realistically get there?
Seems like getting below -20 is unusual, but I could easily be wrong!
The reason I was quite keen on the Hispar was that its stated temperature range should cover (almost) everything I expect to encounter. But to be fair, the number of trips I'll make in those temps or colder are probably not too numerous... (guess I was also attracted by the high down-jacket-porn factor ). And at a £200 premium over the Ne+... nah.
As you rightly point out, it might be a better idea to go a bit lighter (and layer up if necessary). The Yukon does (after another inspection) look like a serious candidate. How well does the strech edging in the hood compare to a cord if it is windy? Is the sizing chart reasonably reliable (for a normal/athletic kind of build)? I'd prefer not having to send it back to change the size. Posting in and out of EU seems like begging for trouble.
The very best thing to do cf fit is to ask them, maybe best via this form.
And probably ask them about whats most suitable for your needs actually as I think you'd likely get an objective answer.
The Yukon hood is pretty basic - similar to the infinity one at heart but also a double popper thing under the chin so it'll be fairly secure. If you want something fancier the Rondoy might do it. (or the NE by the looks of things.).
I would've said PHD's sizes were about right. At 6ft I qualify as large, but my chest's about 40" which is between their M and L. All ( ) of my PHD jackets are L and they're a good fit - roomy enough to loft well, even when I overlayer them over my other kit, but certainly not hanging off me when I wear them over only a base layer and/or 100wt fleece.
As to your original question, I can't comment directly on those jackets, but I have been going to Norway for XC hut touring for about 15 years now, and I certainly wouldn't be looking for anything rated -25 like the Hispar. I can't say any of the various friends or groups I've been with have either. Admittedly, we're using the huts rather than camping, but then presumably you'll have a decent sleeping bag too.
Sorry, Andreas, you don't say if you've already done XC or if this is new to you. I presume you're not planning to actually ski in the down jacket - overheating tends to be more of a problem, even in temperatures of minus double digits.
I carry a jacket to throw on over over layers at stops, for emergency, to wear until we get the huts warmed up. or for trips out at night. Only a handful of times have the temperatures got down to -25. For a few years I carried both a PHD Minimus Jacket and Minimus Pullover (both -5 rated), intending to wear both if necessary, but in fact I never did. A few years ago I got a Yukon Pullover (-15) and it's proved to be a cracking bit of kit to carry. I've not had to ride out a true emergency but I have tested it for a snowholing night and teamed with a very light sleeping bag I was certainly comfortable enough.
Edit:Re the Yukon hood, yes it's pretty basic but it's warm and it stays on well enough. I'd have thought you'd be quite unlikely to be using it on the move, and there's also a fair chance that you'd use it over some other headwear in any case, so imo the lack of drawcord isn't an issue.
My XC experience is quite limited; a few trips last season, only hut-to-hut and a bit later in the season (i.e. not too cold). I quickly figured out how easy it is to overheat though, so the down jacket will not be worn when skiing.
Matt C, I think that 80% or so of my trips will be almost identical to yours and the jacket will have the same function that you outline. It's a good point that winter camping will be done with a suitable sleeping bag as well, so it might not be the best of ideas to dimension the jacket as if it were the only insulation.
You all seem to think that the hood is OK, so I guess that won't be much of an issue. Matt C, how did you reason when you chose the Pullover over the Jacket?
Only remaining headache before I pull the trigger on the Yukon seems to be the sizing. I believe I'll follow your advice, Martin, and get in touch with PHD on that.
How well does the strech edging in the hood compare to a cord if it is windy?
If you were really concerned, you could drop them a line and ask them about modifying the jacket; they're prepared to do all sorts of stuff if you're willing to pay for it.
Like Matt, I have done a fair bit of skiing in arctic conditions and am also a big fan of the PHD gear. My last few trips have been to Finland / Lapland so we have not had to cope with any real altitide issues, but temperatures have been regularly down to -25'C and as low as -45'C.
I'd also agree with him in that the Hispar is likely to be overkill for any type of physical exercise, but its higher quality down and general construction would make it an ideal emergency jacket, better than either of the RABs IMHO. When PHD list their temperature ratings and pack sizes I have found these to be very conservative - I can usually get the actual pack size significantly smaller and use their gear significantly colder than they suggest.
For active use in deep cold I prefer to use fleece / light down tops under either a Ventile or Parmao type shell. For the last couple of trips I have used either a Minimus or Yukon smock (each one has the more breathable M1 outer fabric rather then DriShell) under a HillTrek Ventile smock. I have found this good to at least -30'C but I still have to be constantly careful to control my exercise rate and not over-work myself. Under all that I usually go for merino base layer (top and bottoms), 100wt fleece top, PHD Zeta bibs and good quality hat, balaclava and mittens. One good tip - my HillTrek smock is cut to be significantly over-sized - this way I can strip off my down jacket from under it without taking this outer layer off (pull arms inside and the down jacket comes out through the neck opening!). I usually carry a Minimus vest (XL size!) to overlayer as needed.
Last year I tested one of PHD's prototype Kappa jackets on the 'warmer' days (down to -20'C or so). Warmth-wise it was more than adequate (but it had slightly more insulation than the 'off-the-shelf' ones) and I found the HS2 outer to be much more breathable and able to maintain its flexability than any other membrane fabric I have ever used. Also, having Primaloft insulation inside it meant that I was less worried about moisture build up.
Matt C, how did you reason when you chose the Pullover over the Jacket?
Andreas, 3 reasons for me:
1. I've been using smock-style shells for many years, from the likes of Buffalo and Paramo, and I've got used to the over-the-head style. It's not as convenient for urban/casual wear but for anything hill-going I don't find any real drawbacks.
2. Smocks are nearly always a bit lighter than the equivalent jacket, and that's true of the Yukon.
3. The big one, to be fair, - the Yukon Smock was in a PHD sale at a really great price, and the jacket wasn't
Sorry, it is smocks for me too, and for a couple of extra reasons...
First off, I find the shorter zipper to be both warmer and more draught resistant than a full length zipper. Even if the zipper has a hood external or internal flap it is always thinner than the overall insulation on the rest of the jacket, and therefore colder. Smocks are, perhaps, a little harer to vent off extra heat, but if you need maximum warmth, smocks are warmer than jackets.
Second, I find the larger volume pouch pocket that you usually get with a smock to be more useful than the two smaller volume hand-warmer type pockets that jackets tend to have. A bigger pocket means I can store relatively bulky items like gloves / mittens / extra hat etc in them for easy access and not have to off-load and unpack a backpack every time I want to swap something.
Last, and this is particularly applicable to my combination of HillTrek and PHD smocks - getting acces to items stored in your under-layers. I store electrical items (camera, waklie-talkie etc) and water in the insulated pouch pocket of my down smocks or fleece layers. This keeps them close to my body and well insulated from the cold. My HillTrek smock has long length side vent zippers (which open from the top as well as the bottom) so I can unzip these to reach inside and retrieve whatever I need, without needing to shed layers. It is a simple trick but very handy and seems to work better than having to undo a front zipper on a jacket when I have found I loose more heat.
Actually the mention of the sales is worth noting. PHD have two sales a year (one roughly springish) and there's often a Yukon of sorts in those.
Now the spec is normally a bit lower - 'only' 800fp down, often different face fabrics to drishell etc - so its certainly not an obvious decision. But they are also a reasonable amount cheaper. (should it matter) .
James, thanks for sharing your experience. If it reaches -45'C we're talking some serious winter!! I think that my adventures (for some time to come) mostly will take place in temperatures somewhat more forgiving than the Lappland winter, so for now I'll make a mental note of your gear setup. Might come in handy as I gain some experience and extend my trips, though!
Matt C, James, you've got some good points on the smock vs. jacket choice. I figured it would beeasier to get into a jacket than a smock, but if I can ski for a few hours, I can probably raise my arms over the head to get into the smock. In the end it seems more a matter of preference than anything else (and special offers, of course).
Martin, will keep your tips about the sale in mind and stay tuned to the spring sale.
Another take on the smock vs jacket choice: I used isulating smocks for ages (and still do for windproofs/waterproofs) for the reasons given above, but have changed to a jacket to make it more useful to add to sleeping insulation.
It's a lot easier to drape a jacket round you - and wearing the smock to sleep in is not usually so efficient (compressed below you and may also compress the sleeping bag insulation above as well).
And a final note from experience - a down jacket works with a severely damaged arm - I would have had no chance of getting a smock on! (Although the hospital managed to get my Velez off undamaged, which was quite impressive!).
and just when you thought you had made a decision, someone else comes up with another argument for the contrary. Never imagined that buying a jacket would be so complicated. While some say that you should learn from the mistakes of others since you don't live long enough to do them yourself, it would at the very least be a costly story.
While all the other arguments in favour of the smock are still valid, it might actually be that the sleeping bag compatibility wins it for the jacket. Unless someone tells me I'm going to drop dead if I use a jacket rather than a smock I might just have made up my mind (again).
BTW, Lemming, I hope you made a full recovery from your accident!
) of my PHD jackets are L and they're a good fit - roomy enough to loft well, even when I overlayer them over my other kit, but certainly not hanging off me when I wear them over only a base layer and/or 100wt fleece.
