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 Supplementary question - can you buy these materials anywhere for a bit of DIY?
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 Isn't furtech also ???
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Think furtech is the same system/principle but wasn't aware of Finisterre either. That Finisterre stuff looks very 'smart' compared to paramo - shame they don't quote any weights. I like my viento though find it a bit fussy and over full of clumpy vents, zips and lord knows what and it looks like a sack of sh**e on! Yes, I do know the purpose of them but just think the whole thing could be better shaped and less fussy and 'baggy'. I was very impressed by your blog review of your MTM Glamaig jacket RY and seriously thinking of going down the same route - the one with the full length sleeve linings. I really like the comfort of the paramo system but for the pretty gentle stuff I do I just don't always need the added warmth or overall bombproofness of the heavier materials ( tho would probably still hang onto my viento for the times I do!) Having had the Glamaig a while is there anything you'd spec differently were you to do it again e.g. adding a closure over the zip? Or anything you'd lighten like zips or take away for weight saving? Did the weights come up as you hoped/anticipated and are you happy with it overall? I've also thought about whether the lighter material could work for trousers for warmer weather when I would be ditching the cascadas as overkill/too hot too. Back on topic............. I'd be interested to know too of other manufacturers. Hadn't realised there were even this many.
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Jim - Finisterre do quote weights. The Jacket is 655g and the smock 600g. The smock doesn't LOOK much different from the Velez (although it seems a fair bit lighter - Paramo give a weight of 723g), but the jacket seems much trimmer than Paramo jackets.
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 Yeah, I thought the the finisterre smock looked like a re-branded velez too...
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 Made in Columbia too...
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 Jucky Jim - cheers - glad the blog is useful to someone  I put some more info in the Skiing in Finland thread (17/12/07 17:39) about them and just added a follow up (11/01/08 13:43) Hadn't thought about using the lighter material until after I ordered a pair of Cioch trousers for my girlfriend's xmas pressent. DOH! Just called Neil (Hi Neil if you're reading this) and asked - he said it would be 1/6 to 1/5 lighter but of course not as durable as the standard material. Which is probably more of an issue for trousers than for jackets. He also mentioned a firm called West Wind the used Paramo fabrics but he thinks it may not be going any more (and I can't find on the web). As for buying it - he said that unlike Gore Tex, who are rather paranoid about who they sell to, Paramo seem to be a little more open to the idea. Which probably makes good commercial sense since by having other manufacturers using it they may get better awareness of the system - all to the good for their brand in the long term. Also, it used to be Nickwax that sold the material but now it's actually Paramo. So - someome could just call them up and ask them if they'd sell it to us mere consumers perhaps... I'm sure I've read that Furtech is a very similar principle (Ian Davison, started it is an ex Paramo designer in fact). What the actual differences really are I've never been known. But I have a feeling we'll never know the full story since both of them will have details around their construction that are commercial secrets (though if someone really wanted to plough through the patents...  Was silly of me not to mention Furtech in the original post - I hear lots of good things - but not had my hands on it so far.
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From personal experience of briefly owing a Furtech and having treid on several paramo's it appears that the furtech material is an exact carbon copy of the paramo/nikwax analogy system but done in the style of the older heavier paramo pump liner rather than the liner that the Paramo range are currently sporting.
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Now you've lost me - Paramo are using something different to the pump liner? As far as I know, Paramo have A face fabric (better wear, slows the fall of raindrops to prevent them spraying through the waterproof layer) A waterproof layer (Pump liner? Parameta of some flavour?) An inner drop-liner of some kind. Sounds like I have that wrong (or at least that may be the old way). Can you enlighten me ATZ?
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Paramo now use a lighter pump liner, rather than the older heavier pump liner
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From what I know (and I may well be wrong!) I thought Paramo was just a face fabric covering a pump liner - 2 layers, not the 3 you are suggesting Redyeti. I'm sure someone with more paramo knowledge can confirm this but what I was saying is that the Furtech pumpliner is in the style of the older, heavier pump liner that Paramo used to use, they now yse a lighter one as Rob said above.
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Just checked with Cioch - and you're right ATZ - it's just face fabric with the pump liner inside. When you put the jacket on, you're in contact with the actual Parameta pump liner(or at least your base layer is) Cheers both - Enlightenment achieved. So, are there any more makers using it, what are they like and do Paramo sell to us?
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| Edited: 11/01/08 16:39 |
Any one out there have experience of both the old (heavier) and new (lighter) liner? Can you tell me what the difference is in terms of maximum tolerable temperature? I realise that your reaction to any given temperature will differ from mine, but if you can tell me "It became too hot after X degrees with the old, and after Y with the new, that will be a great help. I presume the new is as good as the old at keeping rain out - true?
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 I've got an Aspira smock and Salopettes with the old heavy liner and a Velez and Cascadas with the new.
It's hard to say in pure temperature terms, but I tend to use the Velez Cascada combination generally from Autumn to Spring, with the Aspira stuff reserved for the worst winter weather (sleet, hail, snow... frozen ground) and my trips to Norway etc. for skiing.
In part though the temperature difference will be down to design (extra fabric layers on more of the Aspira for pockets, salopettes bib etc. I'd be surprised if the the lighter stuff stays comfortable more than 4 or 5 degrees C above the older fabric. Sorry but I really can't be more precise.
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Thanks Matt.
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Forgot to say, but yes, properly maintained all these garments are excellent at keeping the rain out - the lighter lining doesn't seem to make any difference to that
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west winds i have an old west winds nixwax anolagy smock, its the best bit kit i have, but not sure if they still make them. pertex outer, nixwax anolagy liner, pull over the head, very breathable. the only problem is i am growing out of it .ass i have had it 6 plus year i think. been looking @ a fur tec to replace it? any good
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You're both right. There is an outside nylon fabric that's sewn to the inside pump liner. But, the pump liner can be considered two layers: if you have any PowerStretch material or the like, you'll see the outside is smooth, and the inside is brushed. It's the same thing with the pump liner: the "pump" is just brushed polyester (or nylon?) with DWR, with an inside smooth face.
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Pete2s - very kind of you to say so but... I'd say that's two faces to one liner (the pump liner) making one sheet of material + the face fabric = two layers of material total. Meaning I was wrong and ATZ was right. You couldn't part those two faces of material, they are one layer (with two faces). Considering them two layers would be rather confusing. They don't come from two separate bolts of textile. Similarly fleece is not two layers just because it has a fluffy outside and a flat inside. I was just under the impression that the pump liner was hidden completely inside the jacket by a drop-liner.
Plus, Helen at Cioch said it was two. And since she makes them herself, from scratch, I'll go with her view of the world
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| Edited: 12/01/08 01:39 |
