Yes, it's another Rab vapour rise topic.

I live in Finland and we don't have Rab in the shops here. After reading about the magnificence of the VR line, and after practically living in a Montane extreme jacket all (rainy) winter, I'm thinking of ordering not one but two VR smocks. Possibly one smock and one jacket.

Does anyone out there use this system?

The extreme smock is too warm for the approaching spring and for a planned hiking trip in Peru in june. I was thinking that combining two shelled micropiles would be the ultimate in flexibility.

The arms of the RAB jackets are very close fitting; I very much doubt you will be able to get two on easily.

The point of a shelled fleece or pile is to have an outer layer to cut the wind and keep off the worst of the rain.  You don't really gain by having another outer layer underneath the first, but you do sepnd money and add weight and some packing bulk putting it there.

Why not just get the top one big enough to layer an extra fleece or wool layer underneath?  It would be cheaper and just as good.

Pete. 

the guy who lives in the Arctic and raises the huskies wears two layers of VR when out sledding. There was an interview with him in the BMC Summit magazine last year. Think he has them in different sizes so they fit over each other. gary rolfe is him name...sponsored by Rab unsurprisingly.

 The arms/shoulders on the VR are slim so you would need different sizes I think.

I was thinking of transferring the idea of wearing two P&P garments (like a Buffalo mountainshirt with a Buffalo belay jacket) to shelled micropile, for use in warmer weather. Naturally the one on top would need to be a larger size. Good to know that the Rabs are tight around the arms.

I would definitely want to wear the smaller VR against the skin or with a thin merino, as I've noticed this works best with the Extreme jacket. Hence the second VR layer, in stead of a fleece underneath. I'm trying to keep it simple with as few garments and the most efficient wicking as possible. A lighter option might be a Marmot Driclime vest on top as extra insulation when needed. It wouldn't compromise the wicking action and leave the arms free. Wouldn't be as warm though.

Glad to hear about the husky guy, I'm not completely off my head then!

Janne, what value of "warmer" are you thinking of?  With the Buffalo Belay jacket the idea is to pull on something seriously warm when you stop moving at sub-zero.  If it's a lot warmer (it usually will be. compared to winter climbing!) then just pulling on a raincoat or light, unlined soft shell will typically give enough boost to keep you warm enough while you take a break.

You do say you're looking for something for warmer spring conditions... I'm not sure racing dog sleds in the Arctic would necessarily be a comparable climate/activity (standing around doing relatively little while moving to generate windchill).

Pete. 

Pete, I guess I'm thinking of the second layer as a combined break and storm layer for hiking in a few below zero to about plus 10 (celcius). Maybe with a third thin insulating jacket or vest for camp.

Usually I've had fleeces and rainwear and generally too much stuff. I'm aiming for light and functional. I've noticed I rarely need an actual gtx layer. A fleece is usually too hot or too cold and a gtx-type jacket the same.

Janne,

while I am sure you can layer two VRs on top of one another, I cannot really see the advantage. Given the pertex provides good windproofing, I would focus on layering underneath with an insulation fabric that was as breathable as possible. For example, the open weave of Polartec Thermal Pro in a Patagonia R2 pullover or jacket would be my choice. It will allow vapour to diffuse out to the Rab but trap plenty of warm air. And you'll get best effect of the side venting as this kind of fleece has very little wind resistance. You could always bring along a minimalist windshell to use with the R2 on its own if necessary.

John, I see your point and the idea of using a fleece with a windshell is no doubt very flexible. Combined they make a VR smock, though. So pretty much the same thing. And a fleece under a VR would be quite warm I imagine.

If one was to use a VR, get cold and need more insulation from a fleece, one would have to take off the VR (naked), put the fleece and then the VR back on, losing all heat. If using the shelled micropile against the skin and just overlayering with another similar, one would keep warmer. It doesn't have to be two of the same garments of course, I'm just trying not to overcomplicate things.

Am I not making sense? I suppose it's a weird idea, but in theory pulling a shelled microfleece over a damp one should dry the one underneath, as long as one keeps active. Thats the other point, not needing a clammy rainjacket.

You're making sense, but you're wanting something which will have downsides whichever way you do it...

I think I'd be inclined to get a synthetic insulation vest to pull on over the VR if you want something as light as possible for serious warmth in a hurry without having to relayer.  Synthetic insulation like Primaloft is more effective weight for weight than fleece or pile and by having a different garment you've got another option of things to wear over a light base layer (I like a vest to work in as it keeps my arms unrestriicted, for example).

Pete. 

Janne,

If you want something to go over the VR, then I'd second Pete's Primaloft idea. I haven't owned a VR (but I have an older Rab smock that is equivalent to the Montane Extreme). The advice seems to be that these are best worn against the skin and so reasonably close fitting. Throwing on a belay jacket using a synthetic insulation will work well over a VR (which will still be able to dry out underneath as you suggested). Don't limit yourself to Primaloft, though. There are several manufacturers using Polarguard Delta (e.g. Bozeman) which is arguably better. And some make good jackets of Thinsulate (e.g. www.phdesigns.co.uk) , Thermolite or their own fill (the Patagonia Micropuffs are great by all accounts). Find one that fits and has the features that suit - the particular fill is less important as they all have their pros and cons. I have a Keela belay jacket and Berghaus Infinity Light Gilet for different conditions.

However, if you do decide to stick with your plan - which I can now see does have some benefits - I would be tempted to try www.extremeoutdoorclothing.com as Keith does a made-to-measure service. That way you could buy a VR and take measurements over the top... or explain to Keith what you want and he should be able to produce two items tailored to go over one another.

John

I should say that Keith will send you free fabric samples (swatches) to give you a better idea of what is on offer.

Thanks everyone for the input! I've reconsidered my options somewhat but am glad to hear that the system is being used. ('ve probably read about it somewhere in the first place) This whole p&p layering system is new to me but very interesting and my experiences with the Montane jacket have so far been postitive in every way. Never been as comfortable in a wet sleet and snowstorm as with the extreme jacket and salopettes. Too bad they're too hot for anything else.

The link to extremeoutdoorclothing was welcome indeed, looks like seriously functional stuff, as does the cocoon gear.

I still believe in the idea of two light shelled micropiles, but I think I'm going to get a good warm vest in any case as I can see the benefits of this in an actual situation. Packable, easy to rip out from the pack and warmth where it counts. The second shelled pile would have to be very well fitting and easy to pull on, and perhaps more weather resistant than the first one.

Janne,

sorry I omitted the Bozeman link for the Cocoon - looks like you found it anyway!  

As you are suggesting something a little 'unusual' it seems a good time to consider custom made kit, especially when the stuff from ExtremeOutdoorClothing is well reputed. You could specify the outer fabrics of each pile/windproof layer - perhaps using the heavier duty Tactel of the Field Smock on the outside.

Great, I'd appreciate that e-mail address Jon, thanks! No better place to ask Iguess.

Breathability is certainly a key factor. If the smocks are too sweaty the whole point is lost, might as well wear one full weight pile&pertex. Thats why those Extremeoutdoor-models look so attractive, they seem to have really good venting and customisation options.

I was considering a Vr smock in size M and a jacket in L, my chest size is approx. 96cm.

Ok got it, thanks!