Gear

I'm not really sold on the idea of a soft shell jacket myself although I own one. Mine has a hood without which it isn't really a shell anymore than a fleece and DWR windshirt combo IMO. The hood does interfere with the hardshell hood though. Personally I prefer the versatility of a fleece/windshirt, the hood on a windshirt isn't as obtrusive as a softshell hood but worn over a fleece it'll work pretty much as well as any softshell. Another advantage of a windshirt/fleece is that you can vary the amount of insulation by using varying weights of fleece. 

I do like softshell trousers though.

I'm not thinking of Paramo/Furtech etc here, rather softshells that need a hardshell in prolonged or heavy rain.

Just my view.

I will be getting a Rab VR smock with a grown on hood. I find hard shell hoods get wet around the opening and then feel uncomfortable that would mean something around the face between the hard shell hood would be good. I have worn a softshell without a hood and a windshirt over the top with a hardshell over that and was comfortable. For some reason the windshirt hood was more comfortable. However the fleece hood would be better IMO.

I don't get on with a fleece windshirt combo anymore. I used to swear by it but I find that it is generally either needed all the time on the walk of it is almost needed. By that I mean the conditions could be breezy so you are feeling the wind but it is not quite such that you want to stop and cool down to dig it out of your sack. So you either wear it all the time and sweat intot he inside of it or don't wear it until really needed. I find a softshell (and I am talking about the ones that are not fully windproof but allow wind to partly pass through, i.e. non-membrane ones) is warm enough in most conditions up to full rain and full storm force wind yet copes through the zips and rolling the sleeves up to be cool enough in warmer weather. Anything outside of that and you'd not be wearing a fleece because it is too warm or you'd be wearing a hardshell anyway.

I'd look at the Furtech stuff, especially the Claw 1 at £99. You'll need to adjust your layers a bit though. Paramo is similar to Furtech but I'd only go for the Velez or aspire myself. I have the original design of Alta and it was not a good design IMO. It has been improved and then a newer version was the Alta II. I don't rate them anymore. One thing with paramo is when new they bead up and rain rolls off them so you would need to wear waterproof trousers. I find a softshell can be worn in some rain but doesn't bead up and the rainroll off as much. Paramo and Furtech are effectively a type of softshell and a highly weather resistant one too. YOu can get membrane softshells that are totally waterproof too but they have other limitations so I'd not bbother with them.

If you like the Baltoro ALpine lok at the Rab Vapour Rise smock or jacket. Cheaper and almost as warm by all accounts. I was talking to a guy about the Baltoro guide at the weekend while up in the cold snow of the Lakes. He said it was too warm even with venting at that time. It was close to zero degrees celsius with a bit of a nip to the air. I'd say it is not as useable for as long in the year as a VR top. The alpine is supposed to be warmer I think.

If you run hot, i.e. you sweat when working hard then go for a VR I think. That is what I'll do. When stopped or not exerting yourself then you usually add a layer. I thought I wanted a Baltoro guide but trrying on the VR I have gone that way instead. PLus it fitted me so well.

Peter,

Depending on how cold it is outdoors and my activity level I really like pile/pertex (must be cold).

I also layer with sinthetic base layers and a windproof/water repellant---again depending on how cold it is out. 

Waterproofs have their place but for me it's gotta really be pouring out for extended periods of time for me to use them.  

Geez, the "softshell" range is immense.  Here's a link you may be interested in regarding the "theory" behind the softshells on todays market.  

The Best Softshell In The World

LOL.

Dan S.

Cheers for your comments guys, and Andy Kirkpatrick's article - link suggested by Dan - gives a good insight into the technology involved. Mmmm... food for more thought before I commit to buying anything.

My brain hurts!

Pete

Peter - you can see why I have been asking a load of softshell questions over the last month or so. Search for the Vapour rise v powershield thread I started. It was a recent thread I started prior to the last 3 or 4 similar "which softshell" threads we have been seeing recently. I guess the start of winter brings out the people wishing to get a softshell.

I gues AK likes marmot type of soft shells. I wonder if he would call the VR topsas softshells as the equilibrium is not actually windproof but is wind resistant. The Pertex website gives the wind speed rating of it. The Baltoro powershield top from Rab is peforated membrane so would be windproof. Which is better VR or Baltoro for UK winter / autumn use?

Go Outdoors has a berghaus softshell (don't know which one) reduced from £120 to £45. How can you go wrong?

The 1st thing you need to do is place the 4 properties in order of importance to you.

Insulation

Wind Resistance

Waterproofness

Breathability

I assume those are the properties you're looking for in a single garment. Then consider the condituions you expect to use it in. Remember that what works in cold dry conditions won't always work in wet humid conditions.

OK.

Breathability

wind resistance

insulation

waterproofness

I'd be using it in the UK in places like the Lakes mainly in the colder months as I have a thin and light soft shell for warmer months. I have nothing slightly warmer than the montane dynamo so perhaps I need to put insulation at the same or higher level than wind resitance but if thatwas the case then perhaps a powerstretch or one of the mor insulative but less softshellish fabrics might be better. There is one that is mainly about insulation but is available with a "hardface" whatever that is.

So in your opinion is Rab VR best or Rab Baltoro best as the Rab grown on hoods fit me best. At the end of the day I want a well fitting (hence Rab for me) top that has a hood with good volume adjustment that will keep me more comfortable as the most oftenly used outer layer. It will get used on the streets and on the hills. I don't car about getting wet on the hills but do want to be comfortable. I have worn a dynamo (older fabric not equilibrium) in heavy rain and was comfortable before now. For me it is about trying to keep the skin warm not hot or cold. I come from a kayaking background so am well used to the wetsuit idea of keeping warm. I suppose it is pertex pile that sounds like the best option for me but it would be too warm for me as I move quick and work hard on the hills. I'd sweat like... in a buffalo. I'm also a fashion victim in the outdoors to some degree so VR does seem to be the "must have" outdoor top at the moment. PLus at £81 with a discount for clubs it is actually as cheap as the Montane Extreme PP top.

> I gues AK likes marmot type of soft shells.

AndyK's article expresses a pretty clear preference for the shelled micropile soft shell:

"SHELLED MICRO PILE - THE DEFINITIVE SOFT SHELL"

The body of that article dates from 2004.  The original said "Rab's Vapour Rise Trail Smock (£100/415g) is one of the best tested tops of this type on the market"

He wrote an earlier article in 2002 that listed three types of soft shell, but didn't mention shelled micropile.

I posted my thoughts on origins, types and usage of soft shells on this thread in 2005.  Don't think my thoughts have changed much since then.

Time to go wrote (see)

OK.

Breathability

wind resistance

insulation

waterproofness

What wrong with something like this over whatever weight of fleece suits the conditions? Its breathable which is top of your list, wind resistant which is 2nd on your list, insulation comes from the fleece you wear under it so the choice is yours and although it's only shower resistant waterproofness is bottom of your list.

Well thats what a VR - and the sundy cousins - basically is

Yes there aren't any huge advantages over a fleece/windshirt combination. but there are some small - medium sized ones once it gets cold enough to be sure you'll want the warmth from a lined windshirt.

(Fine temperature adjustment, the hood, no billowing etc)

I don't have a fleece with a hood and I don't like pertex hoods against the face. I'm not into windshirts anymore. I find them restrictive in their feel anf my experience is that when you have to use a hardshell on a walk after resisting puttin it on when everyone else have put theirs on the wet pertex maked the hardshell less comfortable than the wet fleece. That might be irrational but is based on my experience of several years of softshell useage.

It is partly this reason I am searching quite hard for something else. I am also hoping that I can leave a fleece layer behind. In fact I want to be able to wear two layers, three at most in all but rain and prolonged rain or very heavy showers. At the worst of winter I would prefer to wear a HH prowool base layer plus an odlo base layer over the top. Then the softshell over that with a hardshell only used if I really had to. That is at the worst of conditions a 4 layer system. With a windshirt it would become at worst a 5 layer system.

I also like a degree of stretch in my outer/mid layer so lined microfleece tops would be out. If not stretch then a very good fit to allow freedom of movement. I find a windshirt needs to be a very good fit  to be close fitting or has to be baggy. My paramo fuera smock is very baggy. The hood also does not adjust sufficiently to drag in the excess fabric. In strong wind it flaps so much that it actually hurts my head just behind the ear, it is like a drumming flap.

Hard shell hoods are usually more adjustable and flap less even if slightly baggy but the thinner or lighter windshirt fabric IMHO are more flappy.

These are just my observations of limitations of windshirts and might not bother others but rule them out for me.

Thanks for your recommendation R_Mac.

I'd be using it in the UK in places like the Lakes mainly in the colder months as I have a thin and light soft shell for warmer months.

So put an extra layer underneath your existing thin and light one, and Robert's Your Parent's Male Sibling.

Pete.

I think the fact that folk have to think of a reason for wearing a 'softshell' top says it all. You are basically putting all your eggs in one basket. That's fine if the weather is predictable, imo.

My one and only 'softshell' purchase ( i don't count my Buffalo and Paramo gear as 'softshell', though others might) was a MH Synchro jacket many years ago. Despite trying my best, i couldn't find a use for it on a typical hill-walk. It makes a fine city jacket though, or something for an hours mucking about at a local crag.

Mike - that's kind of how I feel about my windshirt. If I take it with me it just sits in my bag and gets overlooked as I find my thin softshell is more user friendly and if it is too bad or too good for my softshell it is either hardshell time or soft shell off and enjoy the good weather in a tshirt. It has better v entilation for starters it is more comfortable and it offers windproof and insulation in one layer.

I guess I haven't made up an excuse to wear my windshirt yet.

I wouldn't split too many hairs about single layer non membrane soft shells vs windshirts - especially not the genuinely lightweight ones round ~250g out/coming.

Ok the weight difference does mean they're not as good to carry, but you may get more comfort out the stretch/air permeability etc.  Whatever they're clearly very close cousins