Currently I'm helping to train a two teams for ten tors - which for those who don't know, is a two day event on dartmoor in may. On the kit list, which is compulsory, it requires taped seams on all waterproofs. And so this year, we've discouraged some of the guys who wanted to buy paramo gear, as we're unsure about whether it'll be passed through kit check.
However, here are some questions you might be able to help me with:
The lack of taped seams on the paramo gear, what effect does that have, if any ?
Secondly, my understanding of paramo gear (which is limited) is that it requires heat (from the body) to work properly. So, if the body is not producing heat (hypothermia) does the jacket still work as it should ?
The information about how Paramo works is liberally sprinkled here, but basically is a pump-liner which pushes water from inside to outside, its very breathable, layered over with a water-resistant breathable which reduces the force of rain so the pump-liner has opportunity to push sweat and rain away. The net effect is a good job at keeping the user dry. There is no dependence on body heat, you can just lay the liner on a wet patch and see it soak up the water. There is however no perfect material out there, in Paramo's case if you force water hard against it it can fight the pump-liner, and there are weaknesses like zips. You can either accept it works very well and accept its vulnerabilities, or hunt around trying to find better.
Many complain about the cut/design, and the cost, but as the waterproofness is not dependent on a shell which can wear or DWR, it will in general work as well 10+ years from new, so overall is good value on a per-annum basis. The cut/design, visit a well stocked shop and only buy if you're sure it works for you. Buy online at your own risk on sizing. The same idea Pararmo can come in garments from other designers, e.g. Furtech.
Shells work differently and need seams taped, Paramo doesn't. I see they relaxed the Ten Tor ules which is great.
The classic complaint of Paramo is too-warm, with two layers of fabric it traps heat in the region in between, that is good in cooler situations as insulates comparable to a thin fleece+shell with added advantage of one layer of zips to get good ventilation, but bad in warmer situations. Many end up using Paramo in cooler and a shell (e.g. eVent) in warmer. The newer lighter fabrics are opening up the idea of packing Paramo, something you'd historically not due to weight, and wearing as you climbed into cooler. The newer lighter garments also allow ideas like carrying a windproof and Paramo and using one in lighter rain / warmer and then switching to Paramo when cooler and even then if its heavy windy rain layering the windproof over Paramo to help with vulnerabilities like zips and to reduce the forces of water that is pushing the Paramo layer so in turn less force on the pump liner.
The net effect, is if you're doing a lot of outdoor activities and your size has stabilized (e.g. adult) Paramo is a good part of the outdoor collection.
You mention hyperthermia, well if the person is being helped down then they need to wearing garment for the situation but (egg-sucking) you also need enough insulation, there are over-layers you can throw on someone to help them warm up, from Paramo and others.
I'd find it quite difficult to suffer from hypothermia while wearing Paramo. To me, it always feels warm and cosy, no matter how bad the weather is.
Here's an imaginary scenario...
You're walking along in foul weather and you fall headlong into a river. You scramble to the bank and you're absolutely drenched. Doesn't matter what waterproofs you're wearing, Paramo, Gore-tex, E-vent, or whatever. The water flooded up your legs, up your arms, poured into your hood and got in through the gap between your top and bottom. In other words, you are completely and utterly soaked, without a dry stitch on you.
Now, some people might strip off their wet clothes and try and get dry, then change into the spare clothing they were carrying in their pack... but at the risk of getting hypothermia while prancing around in the hail, rain and sleet in their birthday suits. Others might accept that they were soaked and just squelch onwards and hope for the best, and with many waterproofs that would be possible, but it would be an absolute misery.
On the other hand, if you're in your Paramo kit, you don't need to strip off and change, and amazingly, as you keep walking, the water will get pumped away from your skin and will dribble harmlessly to the ground. (OK, more likely it will fill your boots.) As the water is pumped and drained away, you'll start to feel warm and cosy again, without having wasted time getting changed, and without having developed hypothermia.
(Don't try this on the hills unless you're familiar with the Paramo concept!)
The point about Paramo is...there is nothing else like it (except Furtech I guess) so you have to get your head around the concept that it doesnt work like anything else.
Its not a shell - so dont expect to be super dry all the time.
It isnt like a shell, so dont expect to be clammy with condensed sweat either.
It isnt like a shell, so if you do get soaked...so what, stay wearing it and given half a chance, you/it will dry out very soon - and even if you dont dry out completely, you'll still warm up.
It isnt like pile/pertex so...as soon as you stop, you wont neccessarily chill off, nor do you actually need to run around to generate heat to make the wicking work.
It is heavy compared to a wafer thin plastic bag of a shell...but then, you dont need to wear a thin fleece under and you can wear it all day....so you wont be carrying the weight in your pack...
Paramo is just....Paramo. You'll either love it or just not get it. Bit like Marmite - which I like too.
Paramo have, in the past at least, fielded teams in various Adventure races - see here. Some of the newer garments like the Velez Adventure Light or Quito might be the best choices as they have lots of ventilation options, are short-cut and relatively light.
It isnt like pile/pertex so...as soon as you stop, you wont neccessarily chill off
Yes you will: when you stop your body is doing less work so putting out less heat so you will cool off unless you add more insulation. Simple physiology and physics, nothing to do with your choice of waterproof. Note this isn't a criticism, just a clarification.
It's cold drizzly and 'orrible here. I'll be putting on my Analogy waterproof jacket (actually Finisterre rather than Paramo, but the same fabrics and system) to go and roll eggs with the sprogs later...
I understand the physics Peter...but from experiential learning (thats experience in the real life)...compared to Pile/Pertex....I (and other users I know of) have commented on the difference between the almost instantanious cooling with Pile/Pertex compared to Paramo.
The Ten Tors rule regarding waterproofs has been modified this year.
"Waterproof jacket with hood - robust and capable of keeping the wearer dry under very wet conditions over an extended period."
Note - taped seams has been removed
Paramo is OK
I am a scrutineer for the event in case anyone has further questions - by pm please.
Check out Paramo's information ass I'm sure they use weather resistance not waterproof. I think this is down to the EU/EC standard that uses a test based on a column of water to determine the hydrostatic head that the fabric can withstand. Paramo under this test can not withstand the necessary minimum of 1000mm to be called waterproof. Therefore if the rule is as you wrote then Paramo is not allowed.
Just playing devils advocate with the rules. Whenever you have to produce a set of rules or kit lists you have to play to the average namely taped membrane waterproofs. If you don't you allow in other systems that might no work so well or that require greater understanding than ust putting it on. I mean Pertex Pile systems do work but whether they would work for every kid in a school team is questionable. That is why I say they have to cater for the middle of the road, the sprayway or regatta waterproof (cheap and cheerful for parents to buy). I am guessing that Ten Tors kit lists are probably similar to the personal kit of D of E kit lists.
I do believe that any system can be overloaded and wet through. I've worn paramo in heavy rain while not working hard so no sweat and have been wet through to the skin. In that instance I remember sitting in a very warm pub with the Paramo hanging up to dry. I noticed that the outer pertex layer dried quickly but the pump liner remained wet through even after a cople of hours.
On another occasion I have put paramo trousers over very wet normal trousers. It was one of those days that showered a lot but occasionally those showers wouldn't stop and you had heavy rain lasting half an hour. Anyway the Paramo trousers dried thee trousers underneath in about 10 minutes. That has happend when I fell through snow waist deep in a boggy shallow tarn.
Anyway these two situations seem to oppose each other in that in one the pump liner seemed to pump away the water from the wet trousers inside them but the other occasion the pump liner did not transfer water to the outside through the action of a pump liner. I would have expected that the outer layer would remain wet until the pump liner had dried if the liner was pumping moisture through. I would propose the theory that the pump liner needs heat to kick start it. That is what pertex pile needs to work too. In support of this I would say that there was a huge puddle under the paramo jacket as it was drying, in effect the water was draining through it which is like the pertex/pile jackets do.
Anyone know if Paramo liner needs heat to "pump" or if it is completely down to the structure? If it does work irrespective of heat then why did the jacket not dry out even after several hours on the inner layer, but the outer layer did dry?
Anyone know if Paramo liner needs heat to "pump" or if it is completely down to the structure?
No it doesn't NEED heat, although, let's be honest, you CAN dry ANYTHING a lot quicker if you have heat. I mean... chuck your wet kit in a tumble drier and it will dry a lot quicker than if you leave it in a bucket of water!
Having said that...
The first time I ever saw the Paramo pump liner in action, it was like watching a magic trick. I've said it before... I don't understand the science... so don't ask me how it works. Anyway, there was the 'conjuror' with his big glass bowl of water, and in his hands, like one of those magician's handkerchiefs, was a square foot or so of the pump liner. So, it gets thoroughly doused in the bowl, so that it's completely and utterly soaked. Lift it out of the bowl, and this was the amazing bit, the water vanishes off one side of the fabric and dribbles out of the other. I mean... can it get more convincing than that?
If you don't you allow in other systems that might no work so well or that require greater understanding than ust putting it on.
granted pile/pertex requires a bit of a leap of faith but with paramo what's to understand? you just put on and it works like any other waterproof, just a lot warmer and a lot more breathable. Of course you should wear suitable stuff underneath it but that's the same for other waterproofs as well, do they really suggest a rugby shirt is suitable? the old heavy cotton ones??
I remember a guy who used to wear a pile/pertex Buffalo top on the hills. Fine, you'd think, except that he ALWAYS wore a cotton teeshirt underneath it, which was pretty pointless!
the "pump" is simply capilliary action from one side of the fabric to the other. it requires no heat as it is a physical property of the fabric structure. for any pump or capiliiary action to work it must be in contact with liquid. as the design of paramo would tend to put barely any of the, say , jacket actually next to the wet bit with liquid wet so it can be capilliaried away the so called "pump" liner doesn't really. heat will drive any moisture straight through the liner - after all you can breath through it.
The case in the pub was that it had heat as there was a nice fire in the room. It didn't dry out except on the outside where the microfibre fabric was to the outside. I did turn it inside out and it still did not dry on the inside. IMHO the pump liner did not work because it was not being worn. Heat was needed in that well used Paramo jacket. Bear in mind the advice back then was to wash and re-proof every 18 months to 2 years IIRC. I did it once a year. The fabrics are better now than those early Paramo version IMHO.
I've seen a few fabric demonstration tests, they are generally designed to work. By that I mean the tests are such to highlight the benefits of that fabric over a rival and should be taken with a pinch of salt as the reality in use is not always the same as in a perfectly designed test. Event has them in a lot of retailers too. I've also seen the old windbloc / windstopper demonstration tests where you could feel cold air passing through normal fleece and not through the windstopper fabric.
BTW I do like Paramo technology but not the prices or the shape or the weight. I also made the switch to a different system before all these newer paramo jackets came out so it woul entail quite an expensive switch now as I would need to change other layers too. Pesonally I prefer a softshell for most situations and a light shell out of event on the few occasions its really needed. I remember a few years ago I wore a waterproof about 5 times a year despite being out every weekend.
HAHA as i thought, stirred up a little bit of a hornets nest !
Well thanks to everyone who helped answer the questions (mole and TFS) regarding ten tors.
Right, thanks for all the other info regards how paramo works, i guess the easiest way is for me to get a paramo jacket and try it (dad will love me! )
Many thanks again guys , yet again proving there's such a wealth of knowledge on here
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