Does anyone else feel robbed by the outdoor gear manufacturers? I have just bought a load of gear to use while hill walking. I have just started hill walking so read a lot of gear reviews etc. My most recent purchase is a gore tex paclite jacket with xcr bits on it. I'm pleased with the style and design features but the fabric is rubbish. I have only worn it twice in moderate downpoors and have been completely soaked. Its not from any leak, its from condensation. I'm a little but sweatier than most people but I wouldn't expect the jacket to be dripping from a 1 hour walk.
I went on the net to see if anyone else had this problem and it seems to be a common gripe. Problem seems to be that once the jacket gets wet it ceases to be breathable. That just great for a waterproof for outdoor activity!! I feel a bit ripped off as I paid £140 for my jacket thats no more breathable than my old £50 berghaus aquafoil jacket. I would be livid had I paid full price - £200. I reckon its best to cough up for a decent soft shell and just buy a waterproof for the very worst downpoor but in the manufacturers own fabric. Gore tex may be great in the lab but in practice is no differest from any other membrane waterproof. I'm annoyed about this!!

Yes it's the same old problem. Plenty of comments about this on OM.

It then leads to the dilemma - do i buy goretex and hope it doesn't rain or go paramo and sweat away for 8 months of the year.

Forget softshell - its a nice idea for wind & the odd shower but no good for real rain.

wow, im a bit shocked by your story there. I use a Gore jacket and I never get soaked by condensation. Only once have I experienced significant condensation when walking and that was while hoofing up Helvellyn with a heavy pack. For any other walks I find it copes well.

I realise that its not the most breathable jacket onn the market, but it should definately cope fine with hillwalking unless you are very unfit.

jamie, welcome to the long, slow and expensive path to finding out what you like. when starting out it's probably best to start cheap (as some cheap stuff performs rather well for you) and work up.

have you gore-tex lined boots? they are real fun in anything other than cold weather.

decent soft shell? that's another huge can of worms to sort through.

"goretex soft shell" - thats a bigger can...

Sorry Ben, but I disagree - in the current weather we're having I'm overloading even a pertex top - the fact is that people do produce vastly different amounts of sweat when active - and it's nothing to do with fitness. For myself I find Goretex unbearable in anything more than about 5 degrees.

What jacket is it?

Chris- the point I was trying to suggest was how big a waste of time and money the gore "soft shell" seems to be. It's breathability is negligable for a fabric that isnt even waterproof.

Gore Hardshell has worked ok for me so far, though I do use the Patagonia H2NO membrane as well which is apparently more breathable, though I havent noticed much difference.

Jamie, this is a common complaint with membrane waterproofs. Quite simply, they will not, and you should not expect them to, breathe 100% effectively when it's raining.

The only way water vapour can get across a membrane is for there to be a temperature and/or humidity gradient. It will be hotter inside the jacket but when raining it will be more humid inside. Therefore water accumulates.

This performance will worsen still when the DWR on the outer fabric starts to wear off, hence the need for regular washing and re-proofing.

But it's not a waste for everyone - I wore shoftshell trousers in the Lakes last week in thick clag, and liked them a lot.

Everyone is different: tastes differ etc.

Oops. Should read what I type!

Meant to say

"The only way water vapour can get across a membrane is for there to be a temperature and/or humidity gradient. It will be hotter inside the jacket but when raining it will be more humid outside. Therefore water accumulates inside.

I have used a macpac soft shell jacket made from powershield. I find its great for occasional showers as it actually sheds water better than my ME Matrix jacket. Its also a better option for use in cold windy weather as its really breathable. I was up Snowdon last week and had I just taken the ME jacket to ward of the wind chill I would have been wet and very miserable. Theres a lot of negative comments about soft shell. Its not cheap but it does exactly what its supposed to do which is more than I have found with gore tex. I'm quite physically fit but I do get quite sweaty anyway. I wish I had bought a cheap marmot precip jacket instead and a pair of soft shell trousers.

> but I wouldn't expect the jacket to be dripping from a 1 hour walk

It depends on what you were doing, what else you were wearing, what the weather conditions were like, etc.

I can be utterly drenched in sweat wearing no more than a base layer, even in winter, given the right conditions and activity level.

Unfortunately, if you're generating more heat than you're losing by convectional losses, you'll sweat, and I don't know of any fabric that will allow sweat to evaporate perfectly, whatever the conditions. No, not even Paramo...

But Gore's "Guaranteed to Keep You Dry" slogan is optimistic at best, IMHO.

<But Gore's "Guaranteed to Keep You Dry" slogan is optimistic at best, IMHO>

...so hows that work then ? whats "dry" & in what circumstances ? Maybe we should get a goretex users class action going.

Maybe, and perhaps the Paramo user who leans against the wet wall and gets a wet bum will choose to join in...

What is the correlation between fitness and sweating? In the late 70's I used to do an hours compulsory PE 5 mornings a week with 41 Commando which was vigorous to say the least. This was followed by a 6 mile run, 3 miles in squad along shingle beaches and then back along the road in our own time. I sweated every bit as much then, when I was extremely fit, as I do now when I am nowhere near as fit.

It's not just Goretex is it? I have had very happy experiences with eVENT but last week on the hill I spent 6 hours in driving rain and drizzle. The outer fabric wetted out after about 4 hours and the only dry bits of me at the end of the day were my thighs and my feet.
It's just a fact of life, if you exert yourself over a long period of time in such weather no matter what you wear, you end up damp.

Agreed, no question….but in addition I’ll wager by the controversy that surrounds softshells that many OM contributors slip on their hardshells in cold, windy, drizzly or snowy conditions. Wetting out is not such an issue for all or even much of the time. So why knock the best independent membrane technologies when they perform several fold better (Pclt & event 0.4 RET vs. 1.1 for 0.9-1.2 RET for Hyvent et al) than even the fairly expensive in house fabrics, if only to in these more frequent, tamer conditions?

Sounds like a ME Matrix (or trinity) to me. I've been using one for about a year now with no problems.

OK, membranes can get overwhelmed, but tend to be lighter and easier to pack that P*****.

Some people run hotter and therefore sweat more. When this happens even the most breathable fabric will struggle. This i s why you often see fell runners wearing only a light wind-proof jacket.

OK so manufacturers over-hype their fabrics, but the consumer also has to apply a little common sense.
If you're anything like me, chances are your _baselayer_ gets overloaded eventually just walking up a hill on a dry day without a jacket on top. So if it's chucking it down and you're working hard you're expecting miracles if you think you aren't going to get damps from condensation inside a waterproof, no matter how breathable it claims to be. The real issue is surely which fabrics you're likely to feel most comfortable in when this happens. I can't say I have any complaints about Gore-Tex on that score.