Down Jacket and Buffalo gear?

Hello all,

I'm brand new to outdoors magic, and heres my first post that I hope you guys can help me out with it. There's alot of advice already been said on Buffalo, so my thanks goes to those from similar previous posts...I think overall it comes down the individual person if it works for them or not. I'll let you know if does work for me.

Basically, I'm sorting through my gear to get it ready for this coming winter (yes, I'm OCD with my personal kit admin), I'm planning on doing abit more winter mountaineering, and after getting abit cold of the last 3 winters using the conventional 3 layer systems, I'm going for the Buffalo Mountain Shirt, my brother and dad swear by them and they have been using them for decades, literally, the old farts.

I'll get to the point, I've always got a cheap Rab Arete down Jacket stuffed down in the bottom of my sack, for that "just in case" situation, and I wonder how well it will attually work with the Buffalo system if I was ever to be in a situation where I needed that extra thermal protection....I've read that Buffalo would recommend an addtional layer, in the shape of a belay jacket on top of the Mountain Shirt....

I'll continue to carry my M.E Kongor shell, incase of uber heavy downpours and lunch stops, but thats about it. Any help, advice, good or bad is welcomed and appriciated.

Thanks and all the best, Jacko.

Think the main thing with the Buffalo belay jackets was that the whole system only really works well in very wet weather when you're generating body heat, so needed bolstering when you stopped.

This was before half decent shells (or synthetic insulation) of course, so had to be via more Buffalo. I'd think your shell should basically cover that part of the functionality entirely sensibly. Should be plenty of warmth when moving.

The only remaining thing then is the massive difference in heat output when moving/stopped. The arete should help with that as long as it isn't raining.

If you find yourself getting cold with shell + shirt when stopped in wet conditions then I guess you'd need to add a synthetic insulation thing of some sort. Think it'd be quite a small temperature range though, and you might well be fine. Depends how long the breaks you take are

Problem with down is when it gets wet it is useless - and the reason why Buffalo was/is so popular is that it works really well even when wet (which is the prevelant condition in the UK and Scotland)

Chancing being shouted down I think things have moved on considerably sonce the days of Buffalo. I would never say get rid of a buffalo shirt or jacket, but do venture that, if you havent yet go one it is well worth looking at syntheic alternatives now available - they work, are much lighter arent effected like down.  

I like and use a Buffalo shirt lots, winter and summer (well what passes for summer in Scotland.) I wear a merino layer underneath - varies depending on weather.

If it's warm(ish) and dry - when active the Buffalo will be off because it's too warm, when stopped it will be on and cosy.

If it's cold and dry - when active Buffalo will be on and comfortable, when stopped another thermal layer over the top is called for -down jacket OK.

If it's wet and warm - when active I'd take the Buffalo off and wear a hard shell, when stopped I'd put the Buffalo on. It depends just how wet as to whether you need a hard shell over it.

If it's cold and wet (but above freezing) - when active i'd wear the Buffalo and be just cosy. The hard decision is whether to add a hard shell to keep completely dry. The Buffalo will deal with drizzle nicely, but if it's still wet when you stop it won't be warm enough and you cannot put a down jacket over the top. I got in this situation once and have since bought a synthetic jacket for over the Buffalo in cold + wet. It's a hard call and you have to make your own best judgement of the situation.

Hope this helps.

My Buffalo sees more use than any other jacket I own! Cathy


Edit - slow typing means I've repeated the above posts!!

Ah yeah all the advice sounds spot on guys and gals, thanks to you all! And i think the synthetic jacket option hits the nail on the head.

Cathy, can I just ask, what thermal layer do you use over the top when you stop?

Thanks again guys, I think its obvious what my next post will be, haha, any recommendations for synthetic jackets? U ised to have a primaloft TNF redpoint jacket, and didn't really rate it in for warmth...but then i didnt have a Buffalo in the mix then either.

Cheers peoples!

Jacko.

Sorry Correction in spelling....I used to have TNF redpoint jacket ***

Hi, Tim, I have a Haglofs Barrier jacket -2 sizes larger than usual to go over the Buffalo.
I chose it only because I got a less than half price deal. I'm sure lots of other jackets would do the same job. No way does the Haglofs Barrier have the same warmth as a good down jacket, but then in serious cold it wouldn't be an issue using my down jacket, as it would be snowing not raining.


Cathy

Yeah i'll defo look into it. Thanks again cathy!

I bought a windshirt to go over the buffalo for when it rains a lot, I was told this works well though haven't tried it yet.

I use two different Buffalo tops - an Activelite for warmer weather and a 20+ year old Special 6 equivalent for cold weather. I carry a baselayer (bamboo, merino or synthetic depending how I feel) but I very rarely wear it under the Buffalo (it tends to be used as sleeping bag wear though it could be combined with the Buffalo if I had misjudged the weather). I have found that synthetic underlayers work best with the Buffalo in wet weather - the natural fibres tend to hold on to water more when combined with the Buffalo (that's what I've found in any case).

I also carry a Paramo Torres gilet which I use for overlayering with the Buffalo - the synthetic fibres work nicely with the Buffalo, it handles the wet pretty well (even more so after I Nikwaxed it) and combines well with my rucksack for a pillow when sleeping. The gilet isn't a guaranteed carry though, I carry it when it's likely to be wet / windy / cold - still pretty often though : )

Lastly, I carry a poncho for really wet weather - the Buffalo has handled the worst weather I've subjected it too however it can be a pest drying out in a tent, so I prefer to keep serious rain off it with thePoncho (it doesn't get used that often).

Cheers for the advice warhippo, from your previous posts I can tell your a big Buffalo fan, and seem to have plenty of experience with the system. I'm going to play about with layers under the shirt this winter, i've got merino and synthetic so i'll see which I feel comfortable in, and of course in different temperatures, I do run quite warm so hoping to do without and just keep a thin merino short sleeve in the sack just incase.

The Torres has been recommened before to me by an ex-military man, I do like the look of it to be fair, and I appriciate they are good pieces of technical kit, I just can't get away with Paramo gear, the torres being an exception, i think the majority of it is wrank and looks dated. I'm ignorant to it and thats not a good thing because I'm sure its top stuff and would work well on the hill. Just way too many 60+ year olds wearing it.

I feel happy with the kit I have, but always open to opinions and suggestions. I was just wanting some advice from people like yourself and others above that have used Buffalo. My arete down jacket, or the synthetic jacket i'm looking into would really only be needed in a bad situation like if I broke my ankle and was stationary for X amount of time and the Buffalo system don't work as well because I'm not producing body heat. Down isnt the best when wet, and Synthetic isnt as warm as down, but can go over any layers and can get wet, which would be better with a Buffalo....

Think I just need to try it out and see how I get on, thanks to all for the advice and suggestions.

No probs Tim - hope I got you thinking.

As I said, for upper body, I tend to carry/wear one base layer T (either long sleeved if it's cold or short sleeved if not), a Buffalo shirt (type dependent on the temperature and activity) and (if it's likely to be cold / wet and more so if I'm going to be stopping for long periods) a Paramo Torres gilet.

That combination gives a lot of flexibility, from hot and dry to reasonably wet and cold. It's also not too pricey and is very long lasting - sure it's not tough enough for bushcraft but if it's lightweight hiking you're into and you're not able to spend loads of dosh every year on the latest kit, it should do you well for a long time.

If you've got the money then it's hard to beat down in the cold / dry and it would no doubt combine well with Buffalo gear which also works best in those conditions. However, if it's even slightly wet, the down won't work anywhere near as well as synthetic options (and particularly the Buffalo). If it's really wet then you may want to consider a cheap lightweight waterproof jacket / poncho.

As always, it first comes down to money and then personal judgement - if you can afford both synthetic and down then all you need to do is choose the best kit for the conditions. I've never got much spare cash so I always go with what I know works and try and get the kit which I can get the most use out of. For me, that isn't currently down.

One last piece of advice, if you go for the Paramo, try and get sized correctly with your full upper body clothing on before you buy (ie if that's a Buffalo, then overlayer it with that when you try it out). You'll get a much better fit and you'll be happier with it. If you can't then it's the usual best guess but far better to send it back and get it swapped if it doesn't fit than keep it and hope for the best - you'll carry that "not quite happy with it" feeling with you every time you put it on : ) I did that very thing (though to be fair I lost a lot of weight after I had already bought it) and I had to get it resized - you can do that with the gilet but not the Buffalo (at least not easily) as it's double layered.

Good luck!

Thats exactly what I'm trying to do mate, get a set of kit that I can use all year round, which is reliable for the conditions I'll be out in, and that doesn't brake the bank, thats the whole reason I bought the mountain shirt, less layers, less cost. By selling off a couple of mirco fleeces and a Rab softshell lately...and most likely the Rab down to follow, i'm hoping to pick up a decent fill primaloft jacket for cheap and have pennies to spare. I can't afford both in this current climate.

I've got a mountain equipment kongor jacket which I love, and a pair of Rab eVent waterproof trousers which do the job, so I feel that if its ridiculously wet I can stay dry and have extra protection from the cold. I hate waterproof trousers, and feel that they are next bit of kit that need addressing, sometimes I sweat more in them and just end up wet neways, no matter how "breathable" they are, but then I'd hate to get caught out in a massive downpour and end up wet all day....Paramo softshell trousers perhaps an option, or even buffalo but may be too warm...

You've defo got me thinking warhippo, perhaps too much, but thanks for your messages, I appriciate the help!

No prob : )

If you're after a warm cheap primaloft jacket, look at the keela belay... Brilliant bit of kit

a wee bit heavier than alternatives but much warmer I've found.

Cheers

TG

Some great advice there. If your budget will stretch to it, consider adding a windshirt of some description. The Buffalo one is excellent and makes a noticeable difference to comfort levels.

I'm not familiar with the Kongur but I carry a basic Paclite smock, sized to fit over my Mountain Shirt for when it's really chucking it doon.  (I prefer not to get wet, if I can help it)

I use the same set up as Cathy btw and it makes for a very flexible system.

---

Trouble no one about their religion;

respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours.

~Chief Tecumseh~

TG, i've heard good things about the keela belay before, its defo worth a look into, the positives being the price, but the warmth is important to me even more than size/weight etc.

Thanks pal!

Kev, yeah the windshirt is definatly in the runnings, for use all year round and not just on the hill,it'll be a good asset to have on the bike and for general use. I'll stick with the Buffalo option of course and use it with the mountain shirt...I'm considering Buffalo all round but I know its easy to run quite warm in it all...

Thanks again for advice, its appricated!

This question crops up regularly .I've been using Buffalo
gear for some years now.I only use it as recommended ,that
is, next to the skin,no thermals,base wear or whatever ,
you then get the best benefits from the design.Cheers

I've just noticed that keela are now doing a belay smock too really tempted by this!