Is this going to revolutionize outdoor gear?

16 messages
27/04/2012 at 12:41

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-to-waterproof-absolutely-anything-7679057.html

Amazing stuff! Will they be able to incorporate this 'normal' fabrics like cotton and wool? Can the fabric be made 'breathable' as well?

27/04/2012 at 12:46
P2i are the guys behind the Ion Mask technology which is already being used by Hi-Tec and Timberland for footwear and has been for a few years now. It's good stuff, but hasn't revolutionised outdoor gear so far...

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

27/04/2012 at 12:49
Nanotechnology probably is the way ahead for waterproof outdoor gear, but I'll wait until I see a really proven version before I splash out, so to speak. Several gear firms (Rohan, Berghaus, Alpkit etc.) have already used items proofed this way and although they've been pretty good, none have been up to a conventional waterproof imo.
27/04/2012 at 12:57

@Jon doran - I have a pair of Timberland P2i technology boots and didn't realise that it was the same tech as the one in the article! Maybe it's down to poor marketing that this technology hasn't really taken off...

but to be able to do this to your favourite jacket:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7is6r6zXFDc

Is the an outdoors jacket that has these types of coatings?

Imagine down being coated with this stuff. I've seen some 'hydrophilic down' jackets, like this:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-features/most-effective-down-jacket-ever-from-berghaus/9293.html

but is it the same thing?

Edited: 27/04/2012 at 13:11
27/04/2012 at 13:18

I suspect not so much poor marketing but marketing in what's actually a remarkably conservative market that is dominated by a few key players.

For a very large number of folk "quality waterproof" and  "Goretex" are pretty much interchangeable, and you will need a colossal marketing budget to shift that perception.  Doesn't mean you can't make a success of alternatives (just look at Paramo), but to revolutionise the market you need more than a niche.

I'm following developments with interest as this does look a promising way forwards.  I was a bit underwhelmed with Epic as a waterproof, but it's quite good as a showerproof.   I don't mind if it's revolutionary or not: I'm quite happy in niches!

Pete.

27/04/2012 at 14:20

@Peter Clinch - forget about niches, 'sold' the right way this could be end of 'waterproof/breathable' fabrics industry and it's ancillary products....

bye bye Goretex, event, neoshell et al; Nik-wax, Grangers waterproofing all pushed into obsolescence...

Can you imagine paying say £20 and sending your fav item of clothing e.g. an outdoors jacket to a company like P2i and have them whack it throught their 'plasma chamber' and hey-presto - a jacket that never needs re-proofing ever again or cleaning for that matter!

Or a fleece that has been coated on the outside only - sweat is sucked in by the untreated side and literally pumped by the hydrophobic coated outer layer.

I think a lot of 'fabrics' companies and outdoor gear manufactures should be re-thinking their business model/processes....

this could be the iphone of the outdoor wear industry - a huge, bearly tapped resource.. 

Edited: 27/04/2012 at 14:29
27/04/2012 at 14:55

P2i 'Ion Mask' isn't exactly news, now, is it...?  Or maybe it is to the hacks at the Indy...

2007 thread

2008 thread

27/04/2012 at 15:07
I should think the big companies will do their very best to make sure this tech doesn't develop, how will they ever make any money if you only buy one jacket.

I was once told by somebody who worked in the industry that the larger manufacturers purposely make jackets that will fail after a certain period of time. New colours and new styles are usually enough to get the punters back again though.
27/04/2012 at 15:23

Or a fleece that has been coated on the outside only - sweat is sucked in by the untreated side and literally pumped by the hydrophobic coated outer layer.

Needs more work yet... quite how you're going to put the outside of a fleece in a vaccuum chamber, for example... and if you're got a hydrophobic outer how is that going to help water get out from the inside?  The hydrophobic "pump" used by Nikwax Analogy works from a combination of the surface treatment and the fibre structure, and it takes both of those to work. If liquid water can't get in, I'd suspect it'll have a job getting out too, but there again that's no worse than typical waterproof/breathable coatings/membranes (which are designed to pass vapour, not liquid).

forget about niches, 'sold' the right way this could be end of 'waterproof/breathable' fabrics industry and it's ancillary products....

I think that, much like the introduction of Goretex in the first place, it's likely to be gradual rather than a revolution.  Because it's hard to sell new stuff in a conservative market.   That's why I think that in the first instance (i.e., now and the short term) it'll be a niche, but it could well end up much more.  But don't expect Goretex to be a memory in 2 years time!

I wonder if part of the problem is the numerous flaws and shortcomings of existing technology have become almost invisible through familiarity.  We know that Goretex boot liners are plop in many cases, but that doesn't stop them selling as "guaranteed to keep you dry", and any new technology will have people asking searching questions they wrongly assume Goretex et al have answered.  I wish it were not so...

Pete.

27/04/2012 at 15:57
Read about this in the i, but does it still allow breathability - the article was very clear on whether it would let water vapour through. If it doesn't then surely it's a step backwards for clothing?
27/04/2012 at 16:25

Breathability is basically air getting through holes.  Since it's a nano-coating the holes shouldn't get appreciably smaller, so the ability to pass air (and water vapour) through them shouldn't change.

You might get an increase in perceived clamminess though.  In a "normal" fabric liquid sweat will generally work its way in to the weave and be evaporated from the outside, but that will be inhibited (I'm guessing) by this sort of thing.  This effect is already felt to be a problem of conventional DWRs by some, and there are treatments designed to have the opposite effect (Rohan's "Dynamic Moisture Control, for example), helping the fabric to suck up moisture and spread it rapidy over a wider area.

But this isn't a step back from the likes of Goretex et al, as they can't deal with liquid water either.

Pete.

03/05/2012 at 13:10

"P2i acquires Surface Innovations - July 13, 2010<!-- AddThis Button BEGIN -->Abingdon (United Kingdom), 13 July, 2010 –

P2i Limited, the world leader in liquid repellent nano-coating technology, has acquired 100 per cent of the share capital of Surface Innovations Ltd, a UK-based technology company with a wide range of functional nano-coating patents. The terms of the deal were not disclosed.

The acquisition expands P2i’s product portfolio beyond its market-leading technologies for liquid repellency, adding “functional” coating technologies with applications including anti-bacterial resistance, liquid attracting (super wettable), and many others."

So how about a material that is coated with P2i ion-mask on one side and the other with the 'liquid attracting' stuff - super waterproof/breathable material

Edited: 03/05/2012 at 13:10
03/05/2012 at 13:18

So how about a material that is coated with P2i ion-mask on one side and the other with the 'liquid attracting' stuff - super waterproof/breathable material

I'd guess it's not quite that simple.  The highly water repellent stuff is going to repel water from either direction, so if you have a liquid attracting face that will be a reservoir for liquid that gets or is generated inside... and it won't have anywhere to go.

For your notional MightyWonderTex you need to be able to pass liquid water through, one way only.  I don't see that the above scheme will do that.

Paramo follows a tactic not a million miles from this with a liner that will keep water on the outside face, but the vital caveat (if I understand it right) is the liner is thick enough that there's still a barrier of dry stuff between the wearer and the water.  The "pump" liner doesn't physically pump water out, but it keeps it away from the wearer and can drain out of the garment.

Pete.

03/05/2012 at 13:24

"The "pump" liner doesn't physically pump water out" a slight, if pedantic, modfication "in the real world the "pump" liner's ability to "pump water" is minimal"

or in other words

"The "pump" liner doesn't physically pump water out"

03/05/2012 at 13:31
I doubt it's breathable so probably not. Might be good for rucksacks and drybags or something though...
03/05/2012 at 14:36
Reading this thread, I can't help thinking of The Man in the White Suit.
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