Price Rigging

Online prices for tents.

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John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 12:52
At least two online retailers are now refusing to give prices for tents online.

outdoorgarage and veturesport say - "Due to our very very competitive prices we are unable to sell our tents online. This is as other retailers have complained to our Suppliers."

Now clearly any business that was selling somethign cheaper than everyone else would want to advertise the fact and so they cannot be doing this for charitable purposes which leaves the other option that being that the distributers are indulging in artificial price fixing by preventing anyone from advertising at a price that is below a certain level.

If you wish to purchase from these outlets you have to contact them and ask for prices, this will make people less inclined to buy from them and they will be more likely to buy elsewhere.

Now price-fixing by not allowing retailers to sell bellow a certain price is clearly illegal (Think ASDA importing designer clothes from Europe to sell them cheaper). I dont know whether restrictions on advertising are covered by this.

Sould this practice be allowed?
James Bloor
16/11/2001 at 13:40

Sorry to be sceptical, but it sounds like a publicity stunt to me.

I have never known a supplier to say to anyone that they are not allowed to publish prices – it would be like saying you are not allowed to have a sale. That said, even if one of them did, why not show the prices for the other brands?

I would definitely like to know the outcome of this one.


John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 14:52
It may well be a gimmick but I would have thought that it would be a very good way of not selling tents. If I buy something online I tend to look thru a variety of shops and buy whichever is cheapest, I dont want the hassle of emailing people to ask how much they charge.

I don't know how tent distribution is handled, whether there is some firm that does it in a big way to all the shops, if you lok at some of the smaller (as in small number fo sales per shop) tent manufacturers it would make sense to have tents from lots of manufacturers delivered by one company.

Anyway I think I'll fire off an email to ask about pricing and see how they compare with other places.
Jon Doran
16/11/2001 at 14:58
It's quite common practice outside the outdoors industry - where prices are volatile, like with RAM, or - I've always assumed - retailers are prepared to bob and weave, for ads and web sites to follow this practice.

As far as the outdoor brands 'price fixing', erm, dunno. It's a fairly hefty allegation. Don't manufacturers retain the right to supply whoever they want to? Or not. As the case maybe. Remember all the fuss over Levis and Tesco?

Some manufacturers are wary of web retailers, because ecommerce in a lot of areas, has become synonomous with discounting and they don't want to be seen to supply retailers who are undercutting their bricks and mortar retailers - still their main source of sales.

On OM we're all in favour of giving people the choice, which is why you'll find online retailers on the shopping pages, but you can also track down your local shop using the 'My Local' link at the top left of this page, if you're a member.

At some point you reach the debate that cyclists have over web retailers versus local bike shops. Viz, you may be able to buy cheaper on the web, but you have to weigh that up against local expert advice, friendliness, instant purchase etc. Of course, if your local shop is cack, then that doesn't really matter.

Presumably the manufacturers can legitimately choose not to supply anyone they want to. James, as a retailer, is that the case? It would seem mad otherwise as you'd have no control over the quality of outlet supplying your product.

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

Jon Doran
16/11/2001 at 15:06
John, most manufacturers or brands supply shops direct. There's no central wholesaler that I'm aware of, so it's the maker's choice I guess.

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

Ross Saunders
16/11/2001 at 15:31
OK let me bring you up to date with the real world.

I work in the Outdoor industry, and I have done for 5 years. I have been to COLA shows both in Harrogate and in Manchester ( SOLTEX ). I have worked with all the top manufacturers and have shared a beer with most of the top guys in each company, so I do know my stuff.

Yes Price fixing is illegal, but it does happen. If venturesport or outdoorgarage did advertise their prices for their tents, the respective suppliers would suddenly find it very hard to fulfill orders to both stores. This is not a sobb story, it is the way the industry works. It is the same people running the companies now as it has been for 15 years so you do no want to annoy these people.

If you can get a trade price list from somewhere just look and nearly 99% of them have RRP or SRP...both terms which under EC law are illegal....but it happens.

There is also a fact or helping the industry grow. If say outdoorgarage advertised it's prices for terra-nova tents on-line ( something I know they are the cheapest in the country for ) everyone would start buying from them and the local retailer might as well stop selling terra-nova.

I will leave it there as I am ranting, I do know both Neil at Venturesport and Tim at Outdoorgarage, both guys keeping their respective markets happy. But let's not forget it is not a charity....the only reason these companies exist is to make money, pure and simple. If you can live with that concept go naked and live in a tree!
John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 15:43
Im more than happy for them to make money, especially if they do it by selling me things cheaper than anyone else will do, my entire point was that they should be free to publish on the web whatever prices they want to sell things at.

I assume they are allowed to put up these prices in the shops or do you have to have whispered conversations with the shop assistant to get the prices?

We dont even need EC law since the 1998 competition act stops a company with a dominant position from stopping supplying another firm without good reason.
James Bloor
16/11/2001 at 15:45

Just looked at the sites that you mentioned earlier - they do look very similar don’t they ... are they owned by the same parent company, or even the same company full stop?? I have no idea … perhaps Ross could shed some light on it.

Obviously, I can only talk from our own experiences, but to answer previous questions:

Tent distribution is fairly simple …we get our Terra Nova and Wild Country tents directly from TN. If anyone doesn’t know, TN own WC so the manufacture all tents under both brands. We get our North Face tents direct from NF. We used to sell Vango and Vaude, but don’t anymore as they seem ‘out of fashion’. We also got them directly from each company. We only work with distributors with more ‘generic’ products … such as bottles, socks, and other smaller items.

Jon is spot on with regards to the supplying of goods. If a supplier doesn’t want you to sell their gear, there is nothing you can do. If you got through a distributor, then the distributor risks losing their own contract … something they will not risk.

Having chatted to some of the guys that have been here longer than myself, apparently we have once encountered a manufacturer asking us not to advertise that we were selling at a greatly reduced price – so I guess it does happen. This was when we bought up their entire stock, however, which obviously isn’t the case with either TN or WC.

Anyway, this is turning into a longer thread that I thought, so I’ll leave it there.
John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 15:54
I noticed similarity but could find no linkage between the two within the site.
Could well be that a web design company has sold them both the same design with different icons or that it's a DIY online shop kit that they have both bought.

It looks like it's one of those thigns where there is nothing on paper but if you start misbehaving then orders go missing etc.

Still awaiting reply from venturesport, if I was desperate for a tent this afternoon then they'd have lost my custom by now.
John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 16:12
OK the vetruesport price email has arrived, I asked about the tents that I was interested in, some of which were not actually on their website.
Have had difficulty getting close to the prices, have been within £20 on the Wild Country tents.
Have been nowhere near the price of the Quasar.

The only one I have manged to beat them on is the Taeera Nova New explorer where CMM undercut them by a tenner.

Guess someone from Terra Nova will be round there soon.

Here are prices I asked for

Terra Nova New Explorer

RRP £379.00, venturesport £314.47, CMMonline £ 303.99

Terra Nova Quasar

RRP £419.00, venturesport £347.77

Wild Country Typhoon

RRP £349.00, venturesport £289.67

Wild Country Tornado

RRP £249.00, venturesport £206.67

Wild Country Tempest

RRP £299.00, venturesport £248.17
James Bloor
16/11/2001 at 16:24

Hi again,

I too have had an email reply from venturesport about some prices, and they are indeed cheaper than what we can sell at.

One problem ... no stock.

So like you said John, if you did want a tent urgently, you would have problems.

James Bloor
16/11/2001 at 16:29

Oh ... and found a link between the two sites.

Both are designed by a bloke called Tim O'Shea ... so maybe they are not related after all.
John Bailey
16/11/2001 at 16:36
Ive found another remarkably similar site

www.outdooraction.co.uk

this time a shop based in Ashton-unde-Lyne

so Im guessing that thsi web designer ios selling the same site with differnt branding to as many outdoors shops as he can.

Look on the bright side at least you are under cutting them on at least one tent and having been a student in Nottingham for the last three years I know the one thign that you do have is stock.
James Bloor
16/11/2001 at 16:45

Tell me about it John,

You should see the stock we’ve got in for Christmas! You can hardly move in the warehouse.

It does irritate me when companies attempt to lull consumers into a false sense of ‘excitement’ thinking that they can get a tent with 15ish % off, but then telling you they are out of stock and it will take a couple of weeks.

At the end of the day, you can’t beat going into a store, blagging a bit of discount, and then taking the item home with you. Bit ironic seeing as we have only recently launched our own website!

<blatant plug> http://www.cmmonline.co.uk </blatant plug>
Drew
16/11/2001 at 23:22
James. I'm not sure if you have noticed it, but if you look to the right of your screen, at the WildDay advert. Underneath it there is a list of a few online retailers. At the bottom of it is your's. No need for the blatant plug. But I spose it keeps it in our minds.
Ross Saunders
21/11/2001 at 10:21
Had a thought....have you ever seen an advert for cars or electrical goods with the comments 'Phone for best price' or TBC?



Hedgehope Aztec
21/11/2001 at 11:41
I'll put in a plug for outdoorgarage.com. I have no problem with emailing someone for a quote (at least everything is then in writing) after all when I want a new car tyre I ring round all the local garages (pun). outdoorgarage were very quick to respond to my email and the prices were far lower than any where else. No, they didn't have the TN tent in stock, they told me it would take 10 days, it actually took 4 (I'd kick myself up the ass if I couldn't plan well enough in advance for such a major item as a tent before it was needed).

I've indeed seen adverts of the style "Too cheap to show price... phone now", mainly electrical style goods though. Unlike shops, if I look in the window and there are no prices on the goods, I know I can't afford them!
Dave O aka Jungle Dave ;)
21/11/2001 at 17:24
I think outdoorgarage http://www.outdoorgarage.com is normally pretty good I got an MSR XGK for £60 odd instead of £80 and normally if you plan ahead and order or let Tim know when you need it by they are normally pretty good.
Dave O aka Jungle Dave ;)
21/11/2001 at 17:26
Yes Finally my HTML tags work thanks Mike and Jon for pointing out the error of my ways ps can any one recomend a good homepage building software because I really don't like using word 2K for HTML editing!
Hedgehope Aztec
21/11/2001 at 17:37
Front Page isn't too bad (though watch the extensions bit, as the server part has to be loaded on your host web server). The XP Office version's not bad, maybe expensive though (I get mine free). I tend to use it first then hand code the output for the twiddly bits.

Oh and as far as the XP Operating system goes, think twice and twice again.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
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