Wetting Out

A question. How long would you expect your hardshell’s DWR treatment to hold up in heavy rain?

I am asking because my Mountain Equipment Kalanka completely wetted out in less than 5 minutes today. The face fabric was saturated and wicking through the membrane: when I got home there was water in the pockets!!!!! My wife’s RAB Jetstream (Pertex Sheild) was beading beautifully.

I was very disappointed given that the jacket is only one week old. It was a replacement sent by Mountain Equipment after my other Kalanka was performing badly. To give credit to Mountain Equipment they sent my “old” jacket back to Gore for testing and it failed, so it was replaced.

I feel as I have no other option but to ring Joanna at ME again but I am getting pretty fed up!

Does anybody have similar experiences with Grotex Pro Strech?

Is it only really suitable for use in powder?

Are my expectations too high?

I am just so p@~~ed off. Finally I find a shell with everything that I wanted. One that fits me really well but it seems all seems pretty pointless as they do not seem to keep me dry?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

The face fabric was saturated and wicking through the membrane: when I got home there was water in the pockets!!!!!

Water in the pockets usually gets there through the zips.  If water is getting in through the mebrane the jacket is not working and should be replaced under warranty.  It should be impossible for liquid water to get through the membrane without a huge hydrostatic head.

For a new jacket to be wet out in 5 minutes when another alongside is beading fine suggests all is not well.

Pete.

Hmm....    personally I do not see why they cannot manufacture a stretch shell.  The PTFE that Gore use is inherently stretchy.  It should just be a matter of getting the face fabric sorted.

Overnight the jacket has not dried out fully at temperatures over 20 Celsius with a humidity of 65%.   Not good at all. L

I am pretty sure that the zips are not the problem. I have had RiRi aqua zips before and they are pretty bomb proof.

I can’t really blame ME.  I have a bucket load of their kit.  I want to speak to Gore. 

I want to speak to Gore.

But you would be better off speaking to the shop you bought it from and/or ME because those are the people you have some effective contract with.  If Gore are messing up then ME and their retailers are the people who will have the most effective words with them, because if they don't they'll have a major business problem.

Stretch shells are not inherently problematic.  They're fairly old technology and stretch Goretex has been about around two decades without particular iissues inherent in stretch.  Plenty of other stretch waterproof technology too (my 10 year old Lowe Atom has stretch arm panels which have never obviously leaked, for example).

Pete.

I have a Mountain Equipment Karakoram, which is Performance Shell. From my experience, the DWR was very effective. Water continued to bead on the surface for a long time and I didn't reproof it for nearly a year. However, in very heavy rain, the DWR will be overcome by the water and the jacket will appear to wet out, but it is not actually saturated. When it dries out, the DWR still works.

Water in the pockets is not unusual in jackets, because the zips are not normally fully waterproof. However, the Kalanka has RiRi Aquazips which are fully waterproof I think so you shouldn't get water in the pockets.

If water was getting through the Gore-Tex that's a serious problem. Despite what some sceptics say, it should not be possible for water to get through the PTFE membrane, unless there is a hole or it is under extreme pressure.

Even RIRI zips will leak under really sustained/hard rain and there were some really quite 'serious' evening storms about yesterday!

Ideally you'll have a storm flap either on top of or behind the zip which should help quite a bit. If it doesn't have either then you just have to view the pockets as inevitably getting wet in hard rain. So long as they're lined with waterproof fabrics that's more or less OK.

Mind you a faulty/missing DWR on a new jacket is entirely serious enough to merit a refund, because once it wets out the breathability is gone.

Pockets and zips in no way come under the guaranteed to keep you dry part of their contract,NO ZIP IS FULLY WATERPROOF,If it has a storm flap (or garage as the sales reps call them) and the zip must be fully parked up in the garage (sales talk) so as to not allow water to seep through zip..Plus zips bend with fit which allows seepage into gaps...

Well there is the odd, still very rare, jacket using some YKK thing derived from wetsuits which is claimed fully waterproof (PHD/Norrona only perhaps?).

Not that you won't be able to get water in them easily enough if not quite shut properly etc. To be honest I really don't understand the point of pockets in shells

NO ZIP IS FULLY WATERPROOF

If that were not the case then diving and paddling drysuits would be a bit hopeless...  However, they're (a) expensive and (b) seriously chunky and stiff so it would be a bit of an own goal putting them on a jacket that'll leak through the big gap at the neck in any case.

a storm flap (or garage as the sales reps call them)

Not quite the same thing.  A zipper garage is a covering specifically for the end of the zip while a storm flap is a flap that folds over the length of the zip. 

Pete.

The Kalanka has a storm flap behind the main zip and that was bone dry.  I really have faith in the RiRi zip and am sure that they were functioning as intended.

I have been wearing Gore for years and years.  Whilst I can accept that the face fabric will wet out under certain conditions I was sure that water is getting through the membrane.

I tumbled the jacket for 5 mins and now it beads like a Teflon frying pan.  I stood under a power shower for 15 mins and it would just not wet out at all! It performed flawlessly!  But because the DWR was functioning so well it was impossible to any water to get near the membrane itself.

I have spoken to Gore as the inside of the jacket was damp yesterday and they told me that even if the face fabric is totally wetted out water shot penetrate the membrane. So they are sending me a pre-paid envelope to send it off for testing.  At least this way if the jacket is good my mind clear if not the problem will be sorted.  I have to say they are very easy to deal with.

If the outside of a jacket wets out the inside will get damp with sweat. I'd be rather surprised if water was getting through the membrane.

(Wearing it under a power shower will rely on the membrane to stop some of the velocity. Try it with a wind shirt!).

RIRI zips no doubt working as intended, so without a storm flap they'd be leaking

Anyhow peace of mind rather useful so a good idea

I am pretty sure that it was not sweat. My base layer was dry but my mid layer was damp on the outside dry on the inside. I was only at the petting farm with my two sons, not exactly hammering up grade 8.  I could be wrong and I might end up looking like a fool.

I would be very surprised if water was coming through the membrane myself, especially as the jacket is brand new.  Then again I would not have expected that a brand new jacket would need a round in the tumble dryer to activate the DWR!

I guess I have got to that point where I need scientific intervention or psychiatric for that matter!!!

Well you're seemingly getting both from Gore

The DWR does sound very odd indeed. The sweat is where you'd expect it to be really - it'll mostly go through your base/mid layer without a major problem but condense on the membrane.

A petting zoo doesn't precisely sound strenuous but breathability once wetted out isn't good at all so dunno. What is definetly hard is thinking of a way to make a membrane leak a little bit all over

You can easily test a membrane for leakiness: suspend it so you can make a basin from the garment and pour in water.  If it leaks you'll get drips forming at the bottom underneath.  You will probably get a damp film over the bottom from condensation (especially if it's as humid where you are as it is here today) but if it's leaking it will actively form drips.

Pete.

...and pour in warm water.  This should stop the condensation issue, so any water you see under the bluge will be due to a leak.

Mart74 wrote (see)

When you tumble dried the jacket was it already dry? ie not washing it then drying it. Was the dryer on a low heat?

Or was it just the DWR being activated  by the heat?  

The jacket was a little damp when I tumbled dried at a low temperature.  It was beading amazingly well.  This would lead me to the conclusion that the DWR was not properly cured during manufacture.

I also tried the "hammock" technique for testing the membrane and even leaving it over night.  Nor one drop passed through so I guess it passed with flying colours.

Then I wore it in light rain to the climbing wall today and any beads of water seep into the face fabric.  When I got home I turned the jacket inside out and the liner was damp??? 

sweat...

if you havent noticed it is both warm and humid - so you will have been sweating inside your jacket and there will some level of condensation