winter rack

OK folks, don't all answer at once, what rack do you normally carry for a mixed winter route?, ie, how many ice screws and what length, how many drive-ins/what length?, do you use dynamic extenders? any other favourites?

In the absence of any answers, Richard Gear answered this question here:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/qna/qna.asp?uqn=217&P=1&SP=&V=1

I'm sure Joan will be able to tell you though.

It's a bit like asking what you should carry for a summer route, in other words there's no definitive answer. Depends on location, route and conditions. Sort of agree with RG, except that I wouldn't generally bother with any ice pro or a deadman for Cairngorm mixed routes. This may help too.

Rather than write a full page answer, if you can be a bit more specific about where you're going and what you're planning to do (and what you mean by 'drive-ins' and 'dynamic' extenders) then I can make some suggestions. One basic rule is don't take anything you don't know how to use.

But do take a couple of warthogs - just in case there's any turf left in the Northern Corries. I'm assuming dynamic extenders are zippers or screamers, but I've not met anyone who uses them other than on vertical ice where they might decrease shock loading on dodgy screws at the expense of vibration and potential gate failure. Generally I take more slings than I think I need and fewer screws and ths seems to work well! Also never climb in winter without a single knackered old knifeblade - have never used it but get the nagging feeling that if I didn't have it I would need it - a talisman I guess.

cheers folks, I'd got some idea but thought I'd ask in case anyone came up with anything different, I'd seen some dynamic extenders on the telemark web site and thought they'd be good for using with ice screws to take some of the shock in the event of an airborne moment, by "drive ins" I'm thinking angles, knifeblades etc

Can you point me towards these 'dynamic extenders' with a link Dave? I still don't understand exactly what piece of gear you're talking about.

What you call 'drive ins' are usually referred to as pegs or pitons. If you ask for drive ins in a shop they will probably show you drive in screws, which are a different thing entirely. It's certainly useful to have a few pegs, and I think they're the first thing you should supplement your summer rack with for winter mixed - a couple of blades and a couple of angles to start with.

These are the dynamic extenders I think. Never used one, but often recommended in the context of icefall climbing. Perhaps Jon (or even Richard Gear himself) could help when they return from Spain....Charlet Moser are the main european manufacturers.

Personally I wouldn't bother with drive-in screw-outs like the Scrube - I've got one and never placed it yet to satisfaction! Only advantage over decent screws is price.

Drive in batter out in a frenzy warthogs are great though, especially in Scotland.

As Joan says pegs are potentially useful though increasingly frowned upon - probably shouldn't be used except in extremis on routes below III ish, and even then only if no alternative. In the UK if pegs are needed the guidebook will often mention them, and you'll get a lot of flak for placing a peg in an easy gully....

Thanks Ben, I know what a screamer is but I'd still like to know if that's what Dave means by 'dynamic extenders', seeing as he's mentioned them in the context of mixed routes.

I don't find that pegs are frowned upon when they're the most appropriate means of protection, which is the case on many mid-grade mixed routes on the Ben, where I think most climbers would agree that they're the most used piece of specialist winter protection.

Warthogs are only any good where you've got somewhere to place them - generally not the case in the Northern Corries for example. So they're not an automatic must-have.

So come on Dave, what are you planning to climb?

Agreed re pegs on the Ben - it's in the nature of the rock that there's not a huge amount of pro going. However on blocky northern corrie granite they're IMHO less neccessary (I would probably take a tricam or two although they're not ideal winter pro). It's interesting that recent "super-routes" like the Ventricle, Mort etc have been very 'clean' given the grades though.

Warthogs have got me out of some sticky situations, but mostly in Torridon or that other winter mecca, Dover....there's still some turf left in Coire Nan Lochain though probably not for long!

DOVER... A few of us were dicussing the possibility of doing some chalk climbing at dover at the last OM meet. The poor sods that come from Kent and have to travel diagonally across the country to get almost anywhere.

Any tips for climbing at Dover Ben?
Gear, guidebooks, routes etc...

It was an interesting experience but not one I'm racing to repeat now I live somewhere closer to the real thing! It's a pretty odd pastime.

Top tips:

1) Rack is probably going to consist of a single piece of pro - ie the warthog. minimum 2 for belays plus runners. Often placed in old slots and so easily removed by hand, which never inspires confidence. Apparently the size 10 hex occasionally sees some use too.

2) Let the coastguard know before you start otherwise you may end up being rescued.

3) It's really steep. Never really less than vertical, save for the first pitch of Dry Ice (Mick Fowler's famous chalk debut) which is nice, but the top pitch wasn't there at all when we went - just tottering loose crumble rapidly exfoliating....hence the ab off and run away technique (we got quite good at this)

4) The hard routes are really tough, way beyond my limited bravery / ability. A friend did ?Monster Crack at Beachy Head, the top pitch involved unprotected climbing up flints embedded in overhanging chalk, and was described as "wild".

5) Long ropes are needed - the top 5m of any route are desperate unprotected choss hundreds of feet above the deck; belay well back from the edge (like about Chigwell).

6) Salt water and chalk trashes your winter gear; wear gardening gloves, specs, helmets; take an ordinary household hammer as a third tool for warthog bashing too. Wash everything like crazy afterwards and remember you look like Jon Pertwee at the garage on the way home.

7) As the route name suggests, Careless Chalk Costs Lives...there's a Chalk supplement that was available a few years ago, not sure if it's still about.

8) In retrospect, I wouldn't advise it unless your winter grade is routinely V and above (which mine isn't). But you can have some fun playing around on traverses, in which case all you need is two tech axes and some crampons. The disadvantage is the lower 20ft of the cliffs is often slimy, green, horrible nastiness (the rock improves in the middle before the terrifying top-outs). There was a place at St Margaret's where you could set up a top rope in some old coastal defences but not sure if they've fallen down yet.

Hope I haven't put you off...reading all that again it may appear unattractive and dangerous. In reality of course it's far, far worse :-)

Thanks Ben, erm.... perhaps I'll find a guide to take us.

John, Bloody Hell Fire!

Si(C)

John, there's an online guide here and a bit in the Southern Sandstone Guide. Also, Dave of Peglers (the shop in Arundel) is a fount of knowledge. After speaking to him, I decided any worthwhile winter-gear route was beyond my competence and comfort level (and I've led WI7). So do some research before you turn up!

Ben, which routes did you do?

Hmmm... Looks a bit too exciting.

the dynamic extenders are made by Charlet Mosar and use names like nitro-2, or something like that, but I think they're intended more for the extreme ice climbing where some if the ice screw placements may be suspect

OK, they're screamers ('dynamic extenders' sounds like some dodgy euro-translation). They're not ice-specific, or even always necessary for ice. You can use them on any placement you suspect may not hold your weight, so big-wallers use them too. Absolutely not necessary for starting Scottish mixed.

Dynamic extenders sound less dodgy than screamers!!!

Screamer was just the trade name of the first releasably stitched extenders, but it seems to have stuck as an all-purpose term, like warthog has.