Are You An Accident Waiting To Happen?

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Sally Hotchkin 1
18/01/2002 at 15:58
What proportion of people on the mountains are professionals? Likewise, those living south of the border? I'd like to know these percentages really. Maybe judges are the most prone to accidents, but if the hills are alive with judges then it wouldn't be so much of a shock.
Big Kev
18/01/2002 at 16:53
Sal, have a look at at www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/bobsharp.html

I'm sure I've seen something along similar lines somewhere else. If I remember where, I'll post it here.

PS As a North Of The Border Professional, should I be worried?

Trouble no one about their religion;

respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours.

~Chief Tecumseh~

Sally Hotchkin 1
18/01/2002 at 16:58
About southern professionals coming up to your hills?
Big Kev
18/01/2002 at 21:17
Well that's a constant source of worry but I'm more concerned about becoming a statistical blip, the exception that proves the rule.

Trouble no one about their religion;

respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours.

~Chief Tecumseh~

Big Kev
18/01/2002 at 21:28
Doh! Just realised I'd posted the exact same URL as Jon. Should've read the article first. What a doughnut!

Trouble no one about their religion;

respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours.

~Chief Tecumseh~

Rob Devey
19/01/2002 at 08:28
Analytical rigour is everything - Statto. What's that on your head?
Sally Hotchkin 1
19/01/2002 at 21:15
Rob Devey???? As in, the real Rob Devey??? If that's you a) How dare you 'lurk' in our forums for years without joining in and b) I was just thinking of you about 30 minutes ago (while cooking bangers and mash!) as I'm coming to Boston at the end of Feb. Are you still there, or are you in your mum's spare room?

Rob Devey...well I never!
Rob Devey
20/01/2002 at 13:40
a)You know that I'm a bit of a shrinking violet...
b)Neither Boston nor my Mum's spare room - replaced both with a business park next to a chicken factory in Edinburgh
c)Where is c)? You'd better come clean on what it is on your head
Ms. Mjausson
20/01/2002 at 14:36
I think it's been established that it's a tea cosy. Very British.
--Mjausson
Ninja Marmot
20/01/2002 at 16:20
But it looks remarkably like the waste bin in my study....

Hey! where did that bin go?!
Ms. Mjausson
21/01/2002 at 15:38
I don't know, I didn't take it. Ask Sally.

But to get back to the article, I thought the part about experience was interesting. The author notes that if a rescued person is considered experienced or not is highly subjective. But he makes no mention of this when he discusses the fact that only 12% of the rescued females were deemed experienced compared to 51% of males. It's a curious oversight that he did not mention the cultural bias to consider women less competent than men, particularly since he mentions that in some cases the person who made the assessment may not have ever met the casualty. Given this I really wouldn't place much credibility in exact figures for who is considered experienced or not. Other factors, such as age and occupation are less subjective and thus more interesting.

It's an interesting point, though, how do you measure "experience"? Is it the number of miles? How often you go out? If you go on your own or with others? Only when the sun shines? How about people who camp versus those who do day trips only? And then comes the eternal question: who is a rambler?
--Mjausson (bored at work)
Ms. Mjausson
21/01/2002 at 16:04
Another thing that I'm missing in the article is the point that the greater number of limb fractures in women may be a result of osteoroposis. Particularly as the author has drawn our attention to the fact that women tend to hurt themselves more often the older they get. Curious oversight.

He's coming down very hard on men. It's almost as if he has an axe to grind there and isn't really interested in female casualties except as something to compare against.
--Mjausson
Ninja Marmot
21/01/2002 at 16:15
Perhaps it's only 12% of experienced women who are in trouble because of the male tendency to 'rush in' and take a little risk where the female has a natural tendency to exercise a little more caution.

That's not any kind of sexist comment BTW (B4 you all start on me) it is a fact that *most* male brains function a little differently to most female brains. It's not just stereotyping or conditioning.

The question about what constitutes experience is an interesting one. Certainly a person who only potters about on dry summer days and never goes up hills in mist or rain would not be generally INexperienced in my book, no matter how many miles they had put in. I doubt that they would be carrying the sort of emergency kit that would be needed if the weather changed suddenly and they had to cope with a casualty and no near help. Or am I being too mean?

I am always amazed by the situations people put themselves into, I have met plenty of genuinely lost people out in very poor conditions who did not even carry a map, let alone anything else.
Ninja Marmot
21/01/2002 at 16:17
Sorry MUST PROOF READ! Omit NOT in 3rd para line 3 word 4!!
Ms. Mjausson
21/01/2002 at 16:21
Ah, now he got to the osteoroposis argument. But he still doesn't make the point that there may in fact be the same number of slips in younger females, it's just that the consequences of slips in older women warrant calling out the emergency services while those of younger women don't. Curious.
--Mjausson
Ms. Mjausson
21/01/2002 at 16:25
There is a difference in risk-taking behaviour between men and women, Jeannie. I think that's an established fact. At least if we define risk in terms of physical safety.

I too wonder about the situations people put themselves in. Particularly people who don't know what time the sun sets always baffle me. How can you go out on a hill without making sure that you have sufficient daylight to get back to your base?
--Mjausson
Ninja Marmot
21/01/2002 at 16:48
These are presumably the same people who haven't worked out how long the walk will take either, cos they don't know how to.

On Sunday B4 last we met a guy on top of PenYGhent who was lost. He was looking for Ribblehead. The mist was down and thick; the rain was persistent. I advised him to walk down the flank to the finger post and turn right into the 3-peakers path which would take him over some v. boggy bits to Ribblehead, although I did warn him that I wasn't sure if it had all been reopened since FMD. I showed him the route on my map. "I can't go that way" he said - "I don't want to have to do any navigating".
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I then said that he would be safer going down to Horton, out of the mist. He said that that was where he'd set off from. (!)

He was well-dressed in all the right branded kit and didn't look daft in the slightest. I think that ultimately he decided to retrace his steps and get the train straight back home.

This was not an isolated incident - these people are out there.
Sally Hotchkin 1
21/01/2002 at 17:02
Although a high regard for preparation, safety and navigation skills is admirable, it's also important that it doesn't turn into hill snobbery. How many mistakes have you made in the past when confronting new situations? People have to start somewhere and many don't realise what they're getting themselves into when they set out. Take those people rescued from that cliff the other night. The immediate reaction is 'who plans a cave party on a seacliff in January?' It defies belief, but presumably it felt safe when they arrived.

I'd advocate gaining skills, taking care and having the right equipment at all times, but I'm also cautious that pouring scorn on those who don't is possibly a bit harsh. People have to learn and people make mistakes.

By the way, I'm Libran and thus compelled by birth to balance arguments.
Jon Doran
21/01/2002 at 17:19
Getting caught out in the dark isn't so bad anyway. Pretty much de rigeur for Scottish winter days, but everyone has to start somewhere. One interesting theory is that the fragmented nature of our society means that people are less likely to belong to clubs, and if there are members, there isn't the same ethic of passing on information from the experienced to novices. So, people aren't learning hill skills in the way they used to.

Whether that's true or not, I have not idea. I've picked stuff up over the years from a mix of school trips, formal courses, friends, clubs and practical experience.

Also, it's interesting the way your perception alters with experience. I still really enjoy UK hills and don't underestimate them, but being on bigger things abroad definitely makes you more confident about dealing with stuff at home.

By the way, I'm a Scorpio and thus dark, brooding and passionate and inclined to hold grudges forever...

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

Sally Hotchkin 1
21/01/2002 at 17:26
The point about clubs is a good one. I guess the whole hillwalking thing might not seem as natural as it used to be and this lack of transfer of knowledge might be responsible.

But in some ways, it's why I posted. It almost seems like it's very easy to develop a 'them' and 'us' attitude to the less experienced.
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