Dog training methods?

Hi peeps,

My new puppy has come. When she's had her second vaccination I'll take her to puppy training classes, but in the meantime I've been doing a bit of reading up.

The breeder told me to reinforce good behaviour/choices with edible treats, and to ignore mistakes/bad behaviour. When I last had a dog it was considered okay to say 'No!' in a firm voice if, for instance, the puppy pooed in the wrong place, and then move her to the right place. Has this idea changed? I'm keen to know, because puppy decided the floor next to the television was a great place to poo, and she can't seem to get the hang of newspaper in the kitchen or the garden (for more than the odd pee).

Yesterday I saw an episode of The Dog Whisperer, and then I went to look at some of his books on Amazon. I saw, though, that although many people are very impressed by his method (which seems to be based on the idea that it's important to establish ourselves as the leader of the pack to which the dog believes it belongs), there are other people who consider that idea to be outdated, or even wrong. There are even some people who call him cruel.

I'll have a word with the vet on Monday when I take Piglet for her second vaccination, but I know there are lots of keen and loving dog owners on here, and I'm curious to know what you think.

Anyone who can help me to stop Piglet from crapping all over the house without frightening her wins my undying gratitude

You're calling your terrier Piglet? Isn't there a danger she's doing to develop some sort of weird identity disorder?!!

I'm afraid I know nothing about 'modern' training techniques - last time I was involved in training a puppy, you encouraged her to go to the right place to poo in any way. Preference was on not picking up so she'd find the right place herself more swiftly. I found dangling my dressing gown belt in front of her nose was a good way of getting her to to the end of the garden.

Really pleased you're started, and could we please have a really nice illustrated account of Piglet's puppyhood? With lots of illustrations? Please?  

Not my choice of name, but it's OK. Name, like any command is just a sound to a dog. It does not know what a piglet is (I am sure you know that)

I get worried when I hear people naming their dogs, Tyson, Sabre, , Capone, Torro etc. etc.

Usually tells a story about the owner.

Got a lab puppy here just now and previously had 3 labs.

You do need to be pack leader, but this should not involve cruelty. It's all simple stuff loads of books out their - RSPCA one is good.

House training has never taken me longer than a week. Current pup took 5 days, with very rare mistakes after that. Having someone at home helps a lot, but also try to get the pup to accept being on it's own for short periods which should slowly increase to an hour or two.

Use a training crate until you are happy the dog will not chew the house to bits, but introduce it gradually. Crate will help with house training if the right size.

Take the pup outside immediately:-

as soon as it wakes up / after feeding / and about every hour. Watch during play too.

Praise, pet, food reward for relieving itself outside.

Ignore "mistakes" indoors but if you catch it in the act use a firm "No", lift  it outside and only reward if it continues to relieve itself.

"No" is a command to be taught ASAP.

Punish messing indoors and you'll risk teaching  the dog to relieve itself when you are not looking.

Use a word command when it pisses and another when it craps. Dog will eventually relieve itself on command. Any word for each action will do.

All training basically goes along the lines of giving a command when the dog is going to do it anyway then giving a reward. A food treat (make it tiny) is the most powerfull reward, but also use pet and praise at the same time. Eventually only give the food sometimes, but if your dog will only recall for food stick with it.

You must reward within a second or two of the dog doing what you want otherwise the dog will associate the reward with something else.

Similarly if you come home and the pup has wrecked the house you must not punish it because it cannot associate your punishment with the act of wrecking the house

Consistency is also essential. Everyone in the house needs to do the same thing.

Dogs are individuals. Some are easier than others to train, but they can all spot weak leaders. Be sure not to inadvertently reward unwanted behaviour such as barking for food and giving it to stop the barking.

I see nothing cruel about Cesar Milan. A lot of trainers are probably jealous of him. Note his body language with his dogs. He behaves like a leader. Loads of little hints on this in the RSPCA book.

Pity he does not do basic training on TV. It's all problem solving involving training the owners.

There probably be an odd time when you need to use physical punishment to get a fast response such if the pup attempts to bite an electric cable. Play biting is another problem because if your pup bites a young child in the street you could end up in big trouble.Try not to punish because you have lost your temper with the pup.

Shirl.

PM me and I'll send you some details

Welcome to the wonderful world of dog 'partnership'

We used "The Dog Listener" (Jan Fennell) as a guide. Be a leader, be consistent and stay calm. Dogs need structure and to understand that you are the Alpha. Discipline, exercise and affection as I remember it, is Cesar's mantra. Have fun!

As a dog owner, I'd say you won't go far wrong using Cesar's methods. Our 3 live their lives according to Cesar's Way and they're happy, contented dugs.

I agree 100% with everything Jim said btw.

Um, can I see pictures please? I want a puppy SO badly but I work all day so can't have one

I'd agree with most of the advice above, though I would question Huskyman when he says:  "if that doesn't calm dog down, or stop 'bad' behiviour, 'send' dog to it's 'own' bed, to let it know it's done wrong"

In my view (and obviously there are differing views on such topics), the dog's bed should be somewhere it feels comfortable and safe - it's shouldn't be somewhere that it associates with being 'punishment'.  As such I would personally strongly recommend that bed is not used as a punishment.  It's fine for naughty kids, but maybe not a puppy.

Michael S wrote (see)

I'd agree with most of the advice above, though I would question Huskyman when he says:  "if that doesn't calm dog down, or stop 'bad' behiviour, 'send' dog to it's 'own' bed, to let it know it's done wrong"

In my view (and obviously there are differing views on such topics), the dog's bed should be somewhere it feels comfortable and safe - it's shouldn't be somewhere that it associates with being 'punishment'.  As such I would personally strongly recommend that bed is not used as a punishment.  It's fine for naughty kids, but maybe not a puppy.

Patience and repetition is often the key.  Training should be in short bursts - no more than 10 mins at a time, so that the dog doesn't become bored.  As soon as a dog loses interest you should stop training - otherwise it might actually learn that it can ignore you.

When training my puppy I usually grab a handful of treats, and get to work - once the treats have run out, the training ends (which is usually after about 10-15 minutes) and then we play or whatever.  Note the dog doesn't get a treat EVERY time he does well during training - sometimes it's just praise.

To click or not to click?  Personally I use a clicker - I found it a very good method.

And although it's easier said than done, try not to get angry with the pup when it drives you up the wall.  You will honestly get better results (and more quickly) by staying calm and assertive.  Like I say, easier said than done, and there have been a few occasions when I've completely lost my rag with Billy and screamed bloody murder at him!!!

At the end of the day, you'll get lots of conflicting advice, both on here, from friends you know, and from books - take it all in, try some different methods, and see what works for you and Piglet.  As I've said before, dogs are individuals - methods that work well with one dog might not work well with Piglet's personality.  You need to get to know her, and you'll kind of be able to teach each other what works.

Good luck, and have LOTS of fun!!  And take plenty of photos and videos too - they soon grow up!  Back in October, Billy was only twice the size of my palm, a round little ball that tottered on his unsteady pegs - now he's a big, rangey lad with defined features who can out-run and out-hill-climb me!!!

Clicker is OK, but timing has to be spot on and that becomes hard if more than one trainer is involved because they'll likely be a little bit different.

 I have always kept puppy training sessions down to about 3 mins, 7 or 8 times per day.

Training when the dog's mind is elsewhere is pointless and discouraging for the trainer.

If a training session is proving unproductive finish it on something the dog can do - perhaps a simple sit.

I always use giving my pup his food as training point. Just a quick sit or come that takes only a couple of secs because I don't want to tease over food.

Right, I am not going to comment on other people's advice but try to give an insight into how I trained mine (training is an ongoing process too and I spend at least 1/2 an hour a day training) Dog training is VERY subjective and as long as the end result is a well behaved dog, then it is often a complex blend of techniques that produce the end result. (CRUEL/punishment methods excepted of course)

Firstly, having been a member of a dog training club, in the majority of cases, it is the owners that need training, not the dog, but of course puppies need to learn the ground rules.

Crate training is a excellent aid to "house training." Dogs will generally do everything to avoid fouling their own bed, and two of my three (9 and 6) still sleep in their crates. The crates/beds are indeed their "safe haven" from the world and this MUST be respected and the beds/crates should never be used as punishment. In point of fact if I show displeasure at any of my three, they will automatically retreat to their "safe haven," and I know from that they have got the message.

I too trained mine with the "reinforce good behaviour, ignore bad" and it works, I have NEVER had to physically punish my dogs and a firm voice is enough to curb undesired behaviour.

Commands need to be consistent and a firm NO, LEAVE and QUIET are the only three "negative" commands I use with mine, NO to curb unwanted behaviour, LEAVE to dissuade interest in an object and Quiet to stop barking. (They "speak" on command too)

All my other commands are done in a softer but firm voice that used to be associated with treats. I don't need to use treats now, the dogs have reached a stage where they don't expect it.

Dogs DO know and "associate" their names, and others too (as any multi dog owner will attest to) and I can prove that with my three. I can control my three independently by preceding the command with the individual dog's name, and I can tell Shadow to, "find Meg,"(or any member of the family, human or canine) and he will find them.

Finely, remember to use visual commands at the same time as reinforcing verbal. There may be times when your dog cannot hear you, so it is important to use a combination.

I have verbal, hand signals, whistle tones and my thumbstick, all of which can be used in combination/isolation to control the dogs.

cysgod-du (Grand Slam 2008) wrote (see)

Right, I am not going to comment on other people's advice but try to give an insight into how I trained mine (training is an ongoing process too and I spend at least 1/2 an hour a day training) Dog training is VERY subjective and as long as the end result is a well behaved dog, then it is often a complex blend of techniques that produce the end result. (CRUEL/punishment methods excepted of course)

Firstly, having been a member of a dog training club, in the majority of cases, it is the owners that need training, not the dog, but of course puppies need to learn the ground rules.

Crate training is a excellent aid to "house training." Dogs will generally do everything to avoid fouling their own bed, and two of my three (9 and 6) still sleep in their crates. The crates/beds are indeed their "safe haven" from the world and this MUST be respected and the beds/crates should never be used as punishment. In point of fact if I show displeasure at any of my three, they will automatically retreat to their "safe haven," and I know from that they have got the message.

I too trained mine with the "reinforce good behaviour, ignore bad" and it works, I have NEVER had to physically punish my dogs and a firm voice is enough to curb undesired behaviour.

Commands need to be consistent and a firm NO, LEAVE and QUIET are the only three "negative" commands I use with mine, NO to curb unwanted behaviour, LEAVE to dissuade interest in an object and Quiet to stop barking. (They "speak" on command too)

All my other commands are done in a softer but firm voice that used to be associated with treats. I don't need to use treats now, the dogs have reached a stage where they don't expect it.

Dogs DO know and "associate" their names, and others too (as any multi dog owner will attest to) and I can prove that with my three. I can control my three independently by preceding the command with the individual dog's name, and I can tell Shadow to, "find Meg,"(or any member of the family, human or canine) and he will find them.

Finely, remember to use visual commands at the same time as reinforcing verbal. There may be times when your dog cannot hear you, so it is important to use a combination.

I have verbal, hand signals, whistle tones and my thumbstick, all of which can be used in combination/isolation to control the dogs.

All of the above plus don't forget the emergency 'down/wait/stay' or word of choice. i trained Dodge with patience treats and a toy with hardly any negative re-inforcement except anti stock training (essential for our work).

At no point was Dodge kicked or hit or dragged about in anyway and the harshest command was NO!

With dogs its all about your voice (particularly Collies) the intonation and volume f your commands is hugely important. For example you see people in the park shouting their heads off for the dog to come getting angrier and angrier the end result a dog that wont come back because your always angry! Never chastise your dog using its Name.

As well as the volume there's the  timing of them and with rewards. you have to act immediately on any behavior good/bad immediately or the moment is lost

Training ideally should be little but often IE 5 Min's 5 times a day in the initial stages puppies bore easily.

It should be fun for both of you and bring you and your mate years of happiness.

Keep calm don't lose your rag and persevere

Very good point Wayne, my "DOWN" command is my "failsafe" command for any emergency situations and is one that I practice daily with them.

They would drop instantly onto hot coals when I say DOWN!

You’re mentioning the fact that some people get frustrated when their dog won't return when they see the owner getting increasingly angry is another good point.

Some would say that you should train dogs in isolation, but I disagree with that. There is absolutely no point in training a dog to be the best behaved in isolation only to lose concentration as soon as a distraction appears. You have to make your self the centre of the dog's attention and training with distractions around is a positive move in my view.

The number of times my three have been GLUED to the ground on a down command with other walker’s uncontrolled beasts running around them barking furiously, and the owners getting highly embarrassed and apologising profusely when in fact, their dog's disobedience is actually helping me with my dogs opposite reactions!

Some good points made above.  I think, Tony (and correct me if you think I'm wrong), that your dogs will be probably better at the 'down' command than most dogs because Collies generally are, and will often 'down' themselves just to watch and wait.  Not better, maybe I mean more quick to learn it and more accepting of it.

I know, for example that, in certain cirsumstances, my Billy used to 'down' himself as a very young puppy before we'd taught him it.  It was clearly (to some degree) an almost instinctive reaction.  For example, when he was very young, when we first took him out, if he saw dogs approaching he would get in the classic collie 'down' position.

I don't mean to suggest that your dogs aren't well taught (I'm sure they are very well taught), I just thought it worth pointing out that other breeds might not take to the down command quite so naturally.

Also, at the puppy training/socialisation classes that we take Billy to, the other night they assessed the dogs exisiting abilities to obey basic commands.  Most of the puppies could sit, come, etc., but of the 12 dogs there, only 4 of them responded to (or understood) the 'down' command.  3 of those were border collies (all of the border collies in the class), and the other was a slightly overweight labrador (I personally just think it wanted a lie down!).

Taking it further, only our puppy would 'down' at distance, and that's because we've trained him to (the other pups would only 'down' when they were sat directly in front of their owners, and if told to 'down' at distance they would first walk to their owner and then down in front of them)

Michael S wrote (see)

Also, at the puppy training/socialisation classes that we take Billy to, the other night they assessed the dogs exisiting abilities to obey basic commands.  Most of the puppies could sit, come, etc., but of the 12 dogs there, only 4 of them responded to (or understood) the 'down' command.  3 of those were border collies (all of the border collies in the class),

It is widely recognised that the Collie is one of the most intelligent dog breeds and is able to 'understand' hundreds of words as opposed to other breeds which can only 'understand' in tens of words.

Add to that the Collies biddable nature its quick ability to learn and desire to please plus its need for repeated mental stimulation and we have the perfect dog

as it states in under my piccie 'if it isnt a Border collie then its just a dog'