On The Box Tonight

'Lost in the Everest Death Zone'

1 to 20 of 32 messages
16/11/2001 at 10:05
Anyone else see it? Curiously one-sided view of the whole thing with no-one from OTT taking part in the programme - presumably they declined the invitations to take part - and very little informed comment from outside the expedition participants themselves.

Not saying that the programme was biased or untrue, but it would have been fairer to have had a more balanced picture and some perspective.

It also never addressed the central issue of whether novice climbers should be on Everest at all. Aconcagua, which was cited as the preparation climb is, by the normal route, a very high altitude mountain walk. Call me cynical, but Everest doesn't seem like a good place to learn snow and ice techniques for the first time.

I interviewed a guy a couple of years back who'd done much the same thing as the central figure in the documentary. He'd left his city job with minimum experience to climb Everest, got to the South Col, turned back and almost died on the way down.

It was pretty clear from talking to him that he'd had no idea of the seriousness of what he'd been doing before he got to the mountain and it was only at base camp that the scale of the thing got to him. He said he'd been pretty much terrified the whole time he was on the mountain and the thing I took away from meeting him, was that the fear had washed away any trace of enjoyment or exhilaration from the whole experience.


OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

16/11/2001 at 10:23
I decided not to watch it for the reasons you state, From the newspaper article and from a previous interview with his father I thought it was going to be a one sided affair. That kind of programme just gets me shouting counter arguements at the screen. bad for the blood pressure.
I've never been on Everest and have no real desire to go but it's the kind of place where I would want to think I had enough personal skills to stand a chance of surviving if it developed into an epic with no guide rather than simply being led to the top and back
16/11/2001 at 11:25
Having decided not to watch it for many of the reasons mentioned above, I ended up infront of it by accident.

I have no altitude climbing experience so might not be in a position to comment. But..
My personal feelings are that in such an extreme environment people can't do much for anyone who's out of their depth so true guiding is presumably out of the question.

It's a shame that OTT weren't represented in the programme as they undoubtedly have their side of the story.

A key factor to me a complete, but well-read, layman is that the two guys spent the extra days sleeping at altitude. Climb high, sleep low and all that. I think the fact that they argued against their guide and stayed up a camp five, I think, shows just how inexperienced they were.
16/11/2001 at 12:41
The bit about guiding is a tricky one. On the one hand, if you're not able to look after yourself then should you really be up there and relying on a guide? On the otherhand there is now excuse for a lack of compassion for a fellow human being, which may, or may not have been the case with some of the guides.

Presumably you've read "dark shadows falling", and Joe's comments on the attidude of some of the people on everest climbs.

One of my major concerns about the program was that ott had 13 clients, but we only heard opinions on the climb from 3 of them and without hearing from the rest, it was impossible to gauge what really happended.

There also seemed to be a lot of questions that weren't answered and points not fully explained. I always had the feeling that I was only hearing part of the story.

I also think the fact that OTT weren't prepared to comment about the subject put them in a pretty poor light.

16/11/2001 at 19:23
The programme didn't really give 'uninformed' viewers a real insight into climbing at very high altitude. At first, it sounds really bad that a guide would just forge on ahead a leave a client. But at 8000+ mtrs what can you realistically do to help a very weak climber when there is a fierce storm? The real question seems to be whether or not the oxygen was working properly. However, it is afact that very strong, conpetent climbers do loose their lives when caught out in a bad storm.
Stephen
16/11/2001 at 19:39
I don't know much about climbing, so I watched the program mainly get some sort of insight, not through morbid curiosity. Left me feeling quite scared! The next day I wake up and find that, on the TV news, they're celebrating the arrival of a 72 year old granny at Everest base camp. Obviously nowhere near as dangerous as the summit, but still quite a trip.
It all reminds me a bit of Dennis Tito and his space-flight- we are in a world where people expect to be able to buy anything they want. And if it all goes wrong, the current attitude (imported from America) is to sue somebody for it.
I think people have to accept that, despite their salaries, they still have personal limits. Until they build a chair-lift to the top of Everest it's goign to be a deadly place to be.
You can't pay hypothermia to keep away.
16/11/2001 at 19:43
I saw the prog', guessed it would be a one sided affair, but watched it anyway, I think the bit about them staying high up for the extra days was interesting, I think the problem seems to be that there needs to be very strong leadership if inexperienced climbers are taken on Everest and the like, it should then follow that what the leaders say, the clients DO!, it reminded me of a book by Matt Dickinson where two leaders BOTH said that the party should turn back (one I believe was Alan Hinkes), Dickenson said he felt outraged, he and one or two of the others protested at the time, but turned back anyway, they eventually summited and survived, their trust and faith in their leaders expertise paid off.
16/11/2001 at 22:06
I only guided a civvie climb once....
Never again! it was a winter climb in Alaska as a sort of reward for not being in the summit party for a RM assault on Mckinley
Some bloody reward!
I realised early on that three of the six were not competent climbers and two of those should not even have been outdoors in those temperatures! I called it off had two arguments which ended up with me belting one of the more experienced blokes. His attitude was "they volunteered if they cant cope tough we should go on" I couldnt and still cant believe he was that blinkered
16/11/2001 at 23:10
If anyone is interested in how reading abuot hard it is over 8,000m then read "Seven Summits". It's about Frank Wells, and Dick Bass attempting to the highest on each continent, (Dick Bass is actually the first to ever do it) and Dick was on Everest one year, and above the South Col and diong great, amazingly etc. he was having no porblems (below the South Summit, but it's fairly straightforward after that - with the small exception of the Hil Step) and then two years later when he did finally manage to summit it, well basically it is written very well, and I felt his exhaustion just by reading it.

The thing which surprised me most was that he was down to step, 5 breaths, step. Ed Viesturs without oxygen takes about 1, 2 or maybe 3. Admittedly Ed is another league, but he is without O's.
17/11/2001 at 07:20
Although the program was one sided. It does beg the question if anyone has learned from the mistakes as depicted in Jon Krakauer's book 'Into Thin Air'.
This hi-lights the problems of inexperience combined with deteriorating weather.
Obviously some people can be lucky, like Rebecca Stephens who climbed and summited as a novice, but she is surely the exception rather than the rule.
I would love to achieve an 8000 metre peak but would prefer to build up to it.
Having climbed in the Alps and in Ecuador there is a world of difference and however many munros you can bag in a day, it is not an indicator for high altitute performance.
17/11/2001 at 13:34
I thought about that as I watched it last night (taped it, you see!)...no lessons learnt, and people still dying. Inexperienced poeple still wandering about on the mountain...Still, the people who went (and still do go) know the risks, and are aware of the dangers. They make the choice and have to live (or not) with the consequences. You have to ask, did the fella really think that a bit of experience on a climbing wall and one trip up Acongcagua is enough to tackle extreme high altitude climbing.

I am all for people going to these places, and doing the things that they do, but they have to remember that no-one forced them up the mountain (it was all self-pressure).

I feel sorry for the family and they have my sympathy for the loss of their son, but a law-suit, what will thay prove? It certainly won't bring him back. I'm sure that the guide feels bad enough at the responsibility of the loss of his clients hands. One must ask if it was right to show the programme is a law suit is in the offing? Particularly as it could by no means be considered to be impartial journolism.
17/11/2001 at 13:38
"loss of his clients hands???"

u get what I am trying to say, that is; loss of his clients life!
17/11/2001 at 22:25
The bit about adequate training / experience, sureley it's down to the guides being the "experts" to advise on what is adequate, I know it's easy to sit and make judgements from the armchair, but I think that some of these clients may be put off by the idea of doing the trip if they were told to do at least say two or three other Himalayan peaks first, along with taking courses on ice climbing and the like, the sort of thing which I would feel is a more realistic requirement, the whole thing seemed to get a bit chaotic but I agree that a law-suit won't help, but that's the way things are going, Iwas told today of a guide who's being sued because someone slipped on a step of a stile and was injured, apparently the guide didn't warn them that the step was slippy.... MAD!!
18/11/2001 at 12:54
I find it pretty odd when some guides say 'you can't really guide on Everest'; if that's the case, why are you on the mountain offering yourselves as a 'guiding' service?

Maybe the companies should rebrand the trips and say; 'We'll sort all the logistics, the kit, the climbing Sherpas, a leader or two to give advice when asked for, but it's the client's responsibility to make sure he/she is physically fit and skilled enough to make the ascent.' That way, if people turn up and can't put their own crampons on, or jumar, or whatever, you just refuse to climb with them send em straight back home.

Take 10k or whatever off the cost, get the disclaimer signed and off you go...if people want to risk their lives for a summit then that's fine, but as someone else said, don't get the lawyers involved when the mountain has other ideas...
18/11/2001 at 21:01
you have to question the wisdom of taking clients on an Everest trip who got the idea from a non climbing magazine. A bit of research would reveal the limitations of the potential client and the response "come back and see us in five years time" would be reasonable.
The whole idea of getting a guide is that you think you have got gaps in your ability or knowledge. That being the case should you really be tackling high altitude peaks?
Si
19/11/2001 at 11:43
Might be interesting to know what (if any) disclaimer was signed by the clients on the trip in question? Also, perhaps OTT didn't contribute because of the impending legal action?

I still think its up to the individual to assess the risks involved with any activity. If you don't know what they are, then perhap you should do some research, especially when contemplating something with such obvious risks as climbing a +8000m peak?

Si
19/11/2001 at 13:44
Interestingly, I interviewed Steve Bell of Jagged Globe a couple of years back for an article on climbing Everest. I asked him what experience he'd ask for in a potential client for that expedition and he reckoned:

1. technical experience of Scottish grade 2 winter routes, but preferably harder as the harder you climb, the faster you'll move on what technical ground there is on Everest.

2. Past experience and successful acclimatisation at above 6000 metres. He reckoned 5000 metres is the point where people who simply don't acclimatise, hit a sort of wall. If you can acclimatise successfully at 6000, you can go higher given the right time and programme.

Note, those were his basic requirments, but what he actually preferred was a graduated progress through smaller 'big mountains' up to the 8000 metre mark. The programme said that the two guys had climbed Aconcagua as preparation, but Aconcagua is basically a high altitude fell walk and no technical preparation at all. Personally I wouldn't want to be on a grade 3 Scottish winter route with someone who apparently had so little winter experience, let alone guiding them on Everest. You have to ask whether he should have been there at all, but then if you're running a business and someone offers you $40K to take them up Everest, how easy is it to say no, go away and climb some other peaks then come back to me?

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

19/11/2001 at 13:46
ps: If there's interest, I can put that original article - interview with a novice Everst climber plus with Steve Bell of Jagged Globe, up on the site next week.

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

19/11/2001 at 13:52
Trouble is though that they don't have enough experience to know when they are in serious sh*t. I mean when Frank Wells (in the "Seven Summits" book) was attempting Everest he'd hardly done anything before - I think it was most of Aconcagua (the hard way), and Elbrus, possibly McKinley as well - and he was making mistake after mistake, and he still wanted to carry on. He even fell over once, unattached, and started to slip down the Lhotse face, but somehow stopped, and he just got up and carried on, and the blokes around him were wiping the sweat from their brows. He didn't think it was too much of a problem though.
19/11/2001 at 13:56
Yup, that'd be good.

But about Aconcagua, there is the "rute norma" (or sommat like that), and that is virtually paved up to the top which is from the north, but then there is also the route from the south, which is pretty technical.

BTW I aint perfectly sure about the name of the route, or the N or S thing, but I'm confident.


Finally which is the harder grading 3 or 1?
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