Trash the Cairns

'I consider that we, as responsible hill-goers, have a moral obligation to destroy any sign or supernumary and recent cairn we come across on high open land, in order to protect those who would feel empowered by their fallacious support from embarking on expeditions, to which their capacities and experience are not adequate.' - Jim Perrin

Agree or disagree? Has Perrin gone too far? Is his attitude horribly patronising or does he have a good point?

Which are your favourite cairn black spots, you know, the places which, in clear weather, can be seen to have a rash of pointless cairns signifying absolutely nothing.

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OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

Personally I've come across very few cairns on'high open ground' as such.
Most cairns are 2 feet from a path that looks like a motorway so removing the cairns is hardly going to restore the wilderness to it's pristine condition.

Also we stand a chance of having a shift from the loonies that built these piles of rocks everywhere to loonies who destroy all cairns oblivious to the fact that some of these have stood for hundreds of years.

As far as pointless cairns go theres loads that sit a few feet from a trig point. Summit wind shelters I like, piles of rocks I can take or leave

Wilderness! Hah...every bit of the British landscape shows the effects of man in some way or another.

Cairns are inoffensive (imo) and harm no one. Sounds like someone who had a few inches of column spare and nothing of purpose to fill it! (Like many of the writers who also appear in TGO)

Does this guy mean that people stand at the bottom of large snow-white hills covered in fog, too scared to go up them, until suddenly, when the clouds part, they spot a cairn and suddenly feel safe enough to rush up in their jimjams?

Fairfield has to be the worst, it looks like people have pulled stone out of the six foot wall next to the motorw...... er path to build the damn things!

Sal, there's no mention of pjamas anywhere in the article. His point is that cairns give people a false sense of security in poor conditions and might encourage the inexperienced or incompetent to tackle routes they might otherwise not... It's not so much summit cairns, more the ones that people build at intervals along paths (he said sternly).

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OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

I once cleard a cairn off the top of the trig point on Black Hill in the Peak. No idea what it was doing there, but it certainly wasn't remotely useful. I doubt it encouraged anyone incompetent to go up there, that's the job of the Pennine Way.

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OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

So, if I stuck a cairn in Richard Gear's bedroom, do you think it would have the same effect?

erm........Sal what are YOU doing going into Richard Gear's bedroom? How do you have access? How do you know where it is?

just to extend the arguement to somewhere approaching ridiculous (or not)
does he also think we should rub out all the coloured dots and marks that denote the route of the majority of walks on the continent. also if cairns are unsightly are signposts as well? should we remove all those and limit all access to people who read a map and compass to get from A to B?
As far as cairns getting folk into trouble has he looked at Rescue stats to show how many casualties were results of following cairns into situations beyond their capabilities
Cairns. I don't build them and I don't knock them down. Unless there's proof that they lure people to their deaths then I suggest they are a feature of todays use of the landscape. I've no doubt that years ago there was someone complaining bitterly about 'ye bloodye folkes who bild ye longe dry stane walls and destroye ye wide spaces of ye Dales'

Neil, I guess the answer is yes, he would remove the markings you refer to.

My argument with cairns - ooops, nearly got into 'I have observed the markings, what of it?' mode - is that they're often misleading. You know the situation, the clag's down, you're on a bearing, you hit a line of cairns. It's easy to follow them assumiong that they go where you want to, but a load of them have been randomised, which you only realise when the cloud lifts to reveal an endless field of cairns or you find yourself on the outskirts of Penrith.

That's my argument anyway based on pragmatism rather than some sort of lofty moral concern for the inexperienced. They just stop people from realising they're lost...

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OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

how about stopping people from leaving footprints. It's very tempting to follow them when you are temporarily mis-located

IMHO that man Perrin has a point. Although it's usually buried under the mass of long words and latin bits that characterise his writing. (Although "On and off the rocks" is still a great read). The point is not reductio ad absurdam (that's £10 you owe me JP..) the destruction of all cairns and removal of all traces of man from the hills, which is clearly a) an over-reaction and b) impossible. Rather that there are areas where the proliferation of unnecessary cairns detracts from the "hill walking experience" (whatever that might be) either in terms of scenery or diminution of physical skills - such as being able to navigate properly - or whatever. There have been many times when I have been very happy to spot a small cairn looming out of the gloom, but then I've also been happy to find a fiver lying on the pavement, but I don't rely upon it as a sole means of support. I've also spent hours in the rain knocking over useless cairns and scattering the rocks back around the hill in an inconspicuous fashion. Why on earth have two cairns next to each other, with their bases touching? Why have any say 2m apart? Or 10m? Cairns are a fact of life in the hills, they aren't going to all go away. (I don't get enough days off for that...). But we can improve the situation by some judicious destruction, acompanied by a little camouflaging of the remains rather than leaving a shapeless pile. So why not reduce the number of cairns, or reduce their height a little, tidy them up - they only need to be a few stones at most if they really are "needed" or at any rate inevitable. It's interesting that when I've talked to other walkers as I've been involved in cairn removal they have all - to a man or woman - said variations on the "well they're very useful and save lives" argument, one that has absolutely no evidence objectively whatsoever. With care, and an acceptance of their inevtability, it's perfectly possible to minimise the intrusion that they cause, if we just thought about it, or made (as usual)a little more effort. So knock down a carefully selected cairn today, that's what I say. And never, ever add another stone to the pile...

I would like to see cairns restricted to summits and navigational points such as points of descent. Their proliferation degrades their usefulness turning them from genuine waymarks to indiscriminate rock piles. Maybe the superfluous cairns could be remodelled into small windbreaks for sarnie stops?

Ok it looks like you all need telling whats what. A cairn is a pile of stones (definition - stone = natrual material that does no harm to environment unless radio active) (definition - Pile = more than one ie lots of stones) ok so now we are clear on that bit, the stones are most likely infact probably always from the same area, so there natrual to the ecosystem/ environment. Ok so now we no cairns dont hurt us or the environment. Now any body taking a stroll on "open high ground" should really know that a map and compass come in handy and following cairns is probably not a good idea for example
would you follow white lines off a cliff when driving, or walk into a lake if the sign said so.

Exactly so cairns are harmless, dont really need to be there or destroyed i mean you have to be a bit silly to carry a rock up to make a cairn and it takes probably more energy to destroy one.

now that we have finished you can all buy some raffle tickets off me

TomT

What about a sponsored cairn removal by the good folks of Upper Niddale Venturers? I would say a raffle ticket for every 5 cairns removed would be about right. Now that would be worthwhile...

No were cairn loving people in uppernidderdale, save the stones!

I'm glad I haven't got Tom's version of piles!

I must put in a vote for keeping cairns. They have in the past helped my wife and I from a very serious situation. We were directed on a path into an old forest in Scotland while following the North to the Cape route to Kinlockewe. There is in the forest a line of cairns that have I assure you been there since Adam was a lad.They are covered in moss and weeds but thank Go d they are there, they helped use get out of there. Since our return we have discovered that the owner wants to stop people from going in there as it is so dangerous! but has been prevented by local council twits!! So one big vote for cairns. However this week I have been in the Lakes going along from Herdus to Haystacks and i was amazed at the scale of some of the construction people have carried out up there. But from time to time it is comforting to see a cairn along ones route just backing up your navigating. So I think another vote for cairns.

This reminds me of those metal poles Fort William MRT put in at the top of Five Fingered Gully to warn winter climbers and climbers, who have a tendency to fall down it. Despite being the worst blackspot on Ben Nevis, someone kept sawing them down. I can't remebered what happened to them in the end.

I personally think Jim Perrin is a [rhymes with large ocean going vessel, please don't ban me], as I think someone's life is worth cairn, and all seems to do is moan about anything and everything.

It should also be pointed out that some of these cairns are very, very old indeed - Bronze Age, in the case of the ones on the Carneddau. They are what's left of burial sites built when the climate up there was very different... They are also protected monuments! So don't go around knocking cairns down, they might be much older and more significant than you can imagine.

Finally, when out on a nice mountain walk, why on earth would you want to waste time and energy first getting wound up about cairns and then knocking them down? That's a little sad, me thinks. Get a life!