Vehicles on green lanes

Hi all,

As many of you will be aware, there has recently been a consultation to see whether time for applying for Byway status should be reduced, with a general aim to stop recreational vehicle users from using the Byways. You may also have read the Ramblers' Association's Vice President's article in The Independent where she calls all people who drive vehicles on green lanes "mindless prats".

I vigorously defend the rights of everyone to access the deepest countryside.

You may think that all 4x4s are driven by people who can't be bothered to walk anywhere, or that all 4x4 drivers drive along green lanes to churn up the mud. You may think that all motorbike riders are offensive.

Whatever your view, please put it here and I will try and answer it using facts. There are more and more stories emerging of confrontations between walkers and drivers - I hope that with a little education of all parties the countryside can be a more enjoyable place to visit.

You're a brave man, good luck!

Neil,

ALL Motorcyclists that I encounter off road ARE offensive in my locality.

They are usually kids. They are causing MILLIONS of pounds worth of damage to the Welsh hillsides. It is not unusual to have around 30-40 of the sods tearing up the heather on a weekend on a local beauty spot, and not content with turning one part into a moonscape, they move on to ever increasing areas to destroy. The tracks to and from there are becoming increasingly difficult for walkers and mountain bikers to negotiate due to ever widening deep ruts.
Some tracks have around 20 ruts on a track that is now the width of a dual carriageway.

The vegitation is dying from the two stroke residue that can be seen on the puddles and in the mountain streams. The noise polution is astronomical, particularly as they seem to remove exhaust baffles to get more power out of the machines.

They travel on unlicenced machines without lights and have to negotiate normal roads to get to the mountain tracks so are not insured either and riding in the main illegally. One quite recently struck a woman on a path and unsurprisingly, did a "runner."

Patience locally has run very thin and if they ever do ban fox hunting, don't bother with drag hunting, just turn the packs to hunting down and eliminating these bar stewards!!!

I guess that's one "negative" response then!!!

Didn't we do this on the other thread ?

But that aside there are two issues, Tony what you are talking about is the ilegal use of trials bikes which I'm sure everyone is against.

What Neil is talking about is the legal respinsible use of 4 x 4 's and bikes.......

Guy, there were points raised on the other thread, but people may not have read it. I started this one solely to find out what people's views were. I will return to that thread and answer all of the queries, if that is what people want.

And I do want all views, not just those attributed to responsible use - all responsible 4x4 drivers/trail riders object to being classified the same as the illegal ones. If I can show that the ones that cause the problems are already driving illegally, people might reconsider their views.

So, yes you were right. The people Tony refers to are already riding illegally.

Tony, you state in your post that "not content with turning one part into a moonscape, they move on to ever increasing areas to destroy". How would banning recreational vehicles stop this? These people are already breaking the law and showing contempt for the countryside and thers.

All vehicles driven on public roads must hold a current MoT cert and must be road legal. The removal of baffles would put their noise emission outside MoT standards and the Police could prevent the vehicle being used until fixed.

Unless every single path in the country has a padlocked gate on it, these merchant bankers will still continue.

So, Tony, I agree with you. These people should be stopped. Any way that you can take note of their vehicle's reg no? I assume they use vans or the like to get their bikes into the country?



Next...

**** I am in no way suggesting that people who are involved in financing wholesalers/shipping companies are responsible for this damage - I was using rhyming slang :)

A ban on 4x4s using green lanes could be devastating to caving in Derbyshire. Many of the caves are only accessible by 4x4 if you want to be able to carry all the necessary equipment.

I agree with Tony's view on most off road motorcyclists, but the answer is not to ban them, as they are illegal anyway and a ban would make no difference. Instead why not make places where they can do what they want without causing damage and annoyance. Abandoned quarrys would be an ideal environment for them.

I guess if you don't get the consensus of views you want on one thread, start another one?!?!

Anyone reading this should also look at the thread topic "You Have Until Midnight (March 18th 2004)" in order to get a true cross section of OMG members views on this issue so far.

I'll go and post replies to all of the points raised on that thread then Kevin.

I often run into young bikers in the Black Mountains and they are breaking the law but there isn't a lot for them to do in their areas which are run down and lacking in things for teenages to do.
When I was younger I had a bike but as I lived in Newport kept to the road,but I did break the law sometimes as most kids do when they are young ,but most turn out all right as they grow up.
On the 4x4 front most people stick to the right lanes or join clubs and enjoy days out with out to much drama, but like all things in life you do get the odd cowboy about.Regards Lance[LR owner]

Yes of course they are illegal, but in my neck of the woods they are a HUGE majority of those riding offroad.

Yes there are a minority who are semi pro off roaders who use vans and trailers to get to these places, it does not stop them riding common land and paths illegally though, but the vast majority use illegal unidentifable machines, some are even stolen and they lack any form of identification. Whilst the Police are "busy" earning revenue from speed cameras, they show unwillingness to properly police the roads and tend to ignore these kids riding to and from the local hills on thier machines and also lack the technical abilities to follow and catch the little sods, so instead "turn a blind eye."

As for Dave's suggestion to provide them with facilities, it had already been tried. One local council turned an old colliery waste tip and quarry into an off road centre. It soon closed down due to lack of use. The general consensus was that why should they bother to use such a centre when it "lacked challenge" and why should these off roaders pay the nominal charge to use it when they can use the mountains free of charge.

I think it is unfortunate that we do indeed seem to be talking about slightly different subjects here, but don't expect much sympathy from the South Wales area at least for this proposal when we are PLAUGED by illegal use. Until the authorities show a willingness to deal with this REAL problem, then it would be a very mute subject!

Oh and I appreiciate Lance's point that he has accepted the stock answer that there is not much else for the youth to do, and I suppose it is preferable to them becoming involved in other anti social behaviour, but that is NO excuse for them to attempt to condone lawbreaking and wanton destruction of the habitat on such feeble grounds!!

I have no problem with 4x4s on green lanes - or trail bikes on green lanes. I do object to trail bikes on other footpaths. The banning of motor vehicles from green lanes would do nothing - the mindless prats would still use the lanes, and the responsible 4x4 drivers would suffer - its a bit like banning alcohol because of all the binge drinkers - the irresponsible ones would carry on drinking illegally, and the rest of us would suffer.
Surely the RA should get onto the police to enforce the laws that already exist and are being ignored, before starting a hate campaign on responsible people? (Oh, and I am an RA member - just don't agree with some of their campaigns)

Tony, I completely share your view.

If I want a challenging drive in my Land Rover, I take it to an off road site. It is only £25 for a days playing. It is in a quarrey, so there is little noise nuisance, the only way that people outside the quarrey know that we have been there is a little mud on the road - and sometimes we pay for street sweepers to clear this up.

The argument about unable to afford the cost of a days play is a bit iffy - how much does a motorbike cost? Like you say, do they have insurance? Can they even control the things properly?

As I posted earlier, vehicles on Byways must be road legal and (I didn't post this) the drivers/riders must hold the appropriate driving licence. If not they are breaking the law.

The phrase "why should the actions of a few spoil it for so many" is so true.


BTW I did not want to start this thread spouting propaganda of why vehicles should be allowed on byways - you have all probably heard it many times before. I wanted to know people's reasons why they felt vehicles should not be allowed, so that I could address them and learn something in the process. I will be further posting on the "You Have Until Midnight" thread later tonight.

I am not trying to convince you to like responsible motor vehicle drivers, I just don't want you to hate them.

If you want to read some more about Byways check out http://www.byways.org.uk

Some will no doubt dismiss it all as propaganda, but if you read it with an open mind, you will see the other side of the argument.

Two responses here.

Neil, as I rather suspected, we are talking about different subjects really and I did go off on one. But that is the problem, many people would interpret this issue solely on the experiences of the MAJORITY of mindless idiots selfishly tearing up the countryside without a thought for the environment or others.

I say majority because sadly, personally I have yet to meet your kind, the other side of the coin, so in my view you and your "responsible" friends are outnumbered by the "mindless idiots," who prempt any chance you might have of being heared fairly with open minds!

Steve,

Many local interested parties have approached the Police and complained. The Police, a law unto themselves have basically stated that they have greater priorities and lack the money and specialist resources needed to eradicate this menace.

In fairness the South Wales Police held a HUGE purge on Gelligaer common last year and stopped over 200 motorcyclists, prosecuted them and confiscated their bikes. When it went to court, the cases were all thrown out and the bikes were returned to the owners because the magistrates were "unsure" if the confiscation was legal. When you consider the effort and cost of the operation, it is not much of an encouragement for the authorities when the courts appear to lack the will to be supportive!!

Couple this with the fact that the Police no longer Police the roads adequately, preferring instead to hide behind the annonimity of there camera vans, placing all their eggs in one basket and blame ALL the woes on those master criminals, the speeding motorist.

You might be surprized to learn that as a senior Ambulance Officer, I am very dimissive of the Police attitude to the "speed kills" initiative. Speed does not kill, bad driving kills. And reliance of annonimous technology is not catchinmg the "bad" drivers! But that is another story, suffice to say that the attitude of most Police forces is that "if it is speeding across common land, they aint interested. Now drive through a 30mph limit at 40 mph at 3 in the morning and watch them pull all the stops out!!!!

As Kevin requested, I have posted answers to some of the queries raised on the other thread. If anyone wants further queries answered on that thread, I will do. I don't want to hijack Darren's thread, so if there are any fresh queries, can they be made on this one?

Neil

Here's my 2 pence worth...

I go to the countryside for peace and quiet there are enough noisey cars and motorbikes on the roads where I live without having them distured the naturally tranquil countryside I wish to visit.

Thank god I don't see many 4x4s often in the Lakes at the moment. Long may it stay like that.

Our countryside should be protected and driving all over it with these polluting gas guzzelers doesn't help conservation in my mind.

Confined the 4x4'ers to dedicated areas where they can off-road to their hearts content, but stay away from our National Parks...please.

Ian, Your post is quite refreshing in that it dispells a myth that I had been lead to believe. I had heard that there was a terrible problem with recreational vehicles in the Lake District.

A walker friend said that vehicles and bikes were not the problem in the Lakes, but something else was. Maybe there are just no illegal users causing problems?

Tony, I didn't ask in my earlier posts - are the motorbike riders who cause the problems using Byways or just open land/Bridleways/footpaths?

Thanks for the comments so far - I am gaining knowledge!

Neil