Evil scum of the earth

Just read the new TGO ( great read by the way) and couldn't help but notice the letter about 4x4 drivers and off road motorcyclists. It anoyed me, not becouse what the man was saying was wrong, of course no one should take a vehicle off road against the law, but becouse it was again another rant at a group of people who generaly are very well behaved.

As a user group we then "outdorsy" types come from a huge array of backgrounds and interest groups. We have walkers who paddle, fish, bike, run, off road, maybe even some who cull seals , I don't know. The point is that we stand togehtor saying windfarms are evil, right to roam is a must, and yet at the same time we have no tollerance of the different groups within our own group, becouse we hang on the notion that the bad penny is the majority and not the minority it really represents.

Without getting over upset I thought it worth while pointing out that many walkers and climbers own and use 4x4's, and many who live the great outdoors find these a great benefit, without randomly ripping up rights of way.

There is no epidemic of destruction caused by off roading, the vast majority of drivers do so legaly , just like the vast majority of walkers don't drop litter, trespass and shit on public footpaths. In any area of interest there are idiots, and those wild places with easy access from large population centres will suffer more damage than others, but it is still not a huge problem in the general sense of the word. It evokes a huge response when the damage does occur ( and rightly so ) but instead of demanding the total destruction of anything made in Solihull lets put this into perspective shall we, and ask ourseves as a group of people who spend a lot of time in the outdoors "how often have we come acroos this" I suspect that we all regulaly get anoyed by people who drop litter, leave fag buts on fell tops and open gates, but not so often see the evil off roaders.

I own and drive a Land Rover , its my pride and joy and I have nearly completely rebuilt it and restored it over the course of my ownership, I have taken it off roading in quarries owned and run by clubs for this purpose. Even from this stance I hate the thought of idiots driving off road where they should not, indeed I have on two occasions informed the police and refused to pull out drivers from the bog next to the Wasdale road becouse they should not have been driving on it.

So could I propose that when we all slag off 4x4 drivers, off road bikers, mountain bikers, parascenders, absailers, golfers, dog owners or tories, could we make it clear that we are talking about specific minorities within those groups and not the whole group in general.

Some people need a land rover, enjoy owning one and have never knocked down a child, driven it through central London or taken it to the top of a Scottish o mountain. Not all paddlers rush through fishing lines, not all mountain bikkers scare horses and walkers, not all climbers bolt trad routes, not all walkers leave gates open, not all dog owners let their dogs chase sheep, not all game keepers shoot rambler ect ect

ANyway thats my thoughts, but what do I know, i just thought it worth pointing out that we all love the wild places within our little Island, and most of use enjoy it responsibly regardless of our particular areas of interest, why don't we stand togethor a little more snd stop the huge generalisations.

All ramblers wear red sock you know, scaring bulls and drinking shandy................

<stands back and waits for the generalisations to begin>

I'm with you Guy, been off-roading once and was absolutely hilarious...

It produced the immortal line - when asked, "what are those huge holes in the bottom of the doors for?" The driver replied, "To let the bl**dy water out" - 2 seconds later water was sloshing round our knees and we were grateful to see the stuff drain out of the 35-year-old landy that didn't, errrm, exactly fit together :p

Oh the memories...

well said guy. unfortunately it is the "minority" that annoy people and get rules imposed. it is a fact of life that you cannot ignore and it really pisses off those that do not do "it".

I understand the annoyance at being lumped into a generalisation like this. As a cyclist, I get annoyed when people accuse all cyclists of jumping red lights, of cycling without lights and generally violating every road law written. Because I don't. I do accept that many cyclists do these things, and they annoy me just as much as the whingers and the drivers who try to kill me on a regular basis (because they're violating every road law written, and getting 'revenge' for a cyclist they once saw jumping a red light...)

When cycling on the road, I have to adopt tactics based on my previous experiences. So, if I see a BMW, I am immediately more wary, and watch out for ignorant, arrogant driving, because my experience is that many BMW drivers are like this (more so than those of any other marque). So you might say that I am prejudiced against BMW drivers; they fall into the category of 'guilty until proven innocent'. I do this in order to stay alive, not because I don't like BMWs.

I am sorry to say that I have a similar prejudice against 4x4 drivers, because far too many of my encounters with them have been negative. It's not an irrational prejudice, and it's not one that I stick to blindly if I encounter good behaviour, but it's a prejudice based on my experiences, and one which, until my experiences become overwhelmingly positive, I will continue to hold (catastrophe theory in action).

This doesn't mean that I wish to demonise all 4x4 drivers, or disagree that the bad apples are in the minority, but it does mean that I will suspect the worst until I see otherwise. Sorry, but I'm afraid that's human nature: "once bitten, twice shy", or "Oh, look, another sabre-toothed tiger. I wonder if _this_ one will be friends with me..."

Having once been part of a group that were heavily criticised for the actions of a few I have to agree with Guy on this. When we critisise these people we must differentiate between those who enjoy their hobbys legaly and responsibly and those that behave in damaging and illegal ways.

Those that do behave responsibly are often the greatest critics of those in the same sport that dont as they are the ones to suffer from the loss of reputation that inevitably affects the whole group.

Having said that, some one doing something illegal does not in my view allways make it wrong, would we condem those who did the mass trespass on Kinder? not that illegal off roading comes under that heading.

> Those that do behave responsibly are often the greatest critics of those in the same sport that dont as they are the ones to suffer

In the case of cycling, I get very annoyed by the idiots I see cycling badly, and usually 'have words'. The main reason is that their behaviour endangers my life, because there are far too many drivers out there who are prepared to 'punish' all cyclists for the poor behaviour of a few.

So I do understand's Guy's frustration...

It is of course possible to argue that there is no place for offroading on green lanes etc. without labelling everyone who engages in that activity as a mindless destructive idiot.

Ths post has reminded me of being at a County Show a few years back, the local hunt were there with their dogs and a big show of "aren`t they a friendly lot" was going on around the pen. I`m against fox hunting but my best friend is a supporter and we were there together. Various leaflets were being handed around inviting our signatures in support of the hunt under the umbrella of support of `country pursuits`. I enjoy fishing, for lots of reasons, the peace, the scenery, the wildlife, many reasons. Fishing was there, requiring to be defended in the same category as fox hunting, there was no choice, it was a matter of all or nothing. The fishing sticks in my mind because I remember wondering if I was perhaps a hypocrate, so I don`t remember what else was on the leaflet.

But I do remember that was the first day I passed by an opportunity to voice my objection to hunting and the first day my best friend passed by an opportunity to support it.

I think it was perhaps the only time the pair of us have ever fully respected each other`s stance on the matter.

marcus the green laning is another issue but I do see the debate. however it is legal and many of the green lanes in non hilly areas are only passible due to 4 x 4 clubs? but yes another debate entirely.I don't green lane and don't think I would, but if others choose to do so legaly then OK its there choice, rather that in the bounds of the law than doing it someowhere not set aside for it, we only have a small island after all and lots of interest groups.

perhaps what anoys me most and what I'm trying to say is this evil 4x4 debate is aimed at a few people and a few incidents, its hardly commonplace throughout all the National parks and wild areas

awfull where it does happen, granted but lets not over estimate the scale of the problem or numbers involved in the ilegal use. And more importantly lets not forget all the different groups we belong to as well as the outdoorsy, climbing hats we wear.

Tollerance within legal bounds is my catchphrase :)

I agree completely with you on the way the argument should be conducted, Guy.

It's not helpful to anyone, or to the furtherance of debate, to paint all recreational off-roaders as destructive morons, or to suggest that hoardes of irresponsible drivers are to be found on every green hill all year round.

I'm not sure that the tgo correspondent (Archie Bell) was doing that though - he was referring to a particular incident that was part of a TV show. The introductory comments just serve to place his observations in the context of the general debate.

Funnily enough, there is some correspondence in my local paper this week from someone living in the local flatlands on the Cheshire plain, which describes his neighbourhood's off-roaders as "morons", 3 times in the same short letter.

no i don't mean to imply that tgo was doing this it just put me in mind of the argument that would follow, the going down the same line again.

it got me thinking which I suppose is what its all about in the end :)

I've been doing quite a bit of thinking on the issue too, and I've changed my thinking a bit. Despite the publicity about off-roading in places like the Dales, and the obvious arguments against it, I think it deflects attention from the huge problem across the country of illegal bike & car use off-road. It's easy to gain sympathy for "wild and beautiful landscapes being destroyed", less so for the urban and suburban areas where people's lives are ruined on a daily basis.

Virtually every community suffers from the problem - there are laws against it, but they are not enforced and almost every police force in the land says that they can't deal with it.

With that in mind I can't see that there's a hope in hell of enforcing a ban in remote areas, and maybe the anti lobby would be better off enlisting the help of legitimate users to get rid of the idiots.

In a perfect world, I would still say that you should keep vehicles off the green lanes and historic tracks that should be preserved as they are, but we don't live in that perfect world.

Nah but Im thinking of moving there if this one gets any worse.

Have we not been through this debate more than once????

Sort fo tony but I think this is more about how the press report things and not lumping the good with the bad.

Yes, we've been carefully steering away from the usual arguments!

There has been a lot of publicity in our local paper recently, due to the fact that it is becoming so common in South Wales that there are no daily complaints to Police/councils etc.

The Police have mounted very costly operations lately, one such where they have caught on one Sunady 150 off road motorcylists/4X4 users.

There was a letter in response on the letters page from a group of off road motorcyclists. They stated that they are ALL "responsible" adults, who always show respect to other hill users and slow down and get off,and they expressed a desire not to be tarred with the same brush as in their words, the "young terraways." BIG DEAL, the fact is that they are still breaking the law, and the fact that they "respect" other hill users is totally irrelevant in this case, since their activity is illegal and the other users are not! In these cases, they simply should not be there, and any distinction between them and the "irresponsible minority of idiots is purely irrelevant!

I do see the distinction between this issue and the LEGAL hobby of offroading, but people such as these attempting to condone their breaking of the laws is the real credibility gap!

Omit the "no" in front of complaints to police!!!

tony i don't see anyone arguing against the bad element , ever.

the comment here was not 4x4's / bikers or whatever are good, but instead every hobby has the twat element, lets conctrate on the that and not the hobby itself.

this is was not meant as a argument to or against 4x4's but a call for a) balanced and focused debate and b) tollerance for the good MAJORITY

the minority, well they can go F*((*&^^ P*