Jebel Toubkal in December

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Maciej Zgadzaj
05/11/2011 at 22:12
I am going to do Jebel Toubkal over the weekend 10/11 December this year, and was wondering what are the approximate temperatures at the altitude of Nelter Refuge and on the peak during day and night?

I know it is going to be below zero C (looking at current forecast at http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Toubkal/forecasts/4167 it is below zero even now), but wondering how much is it going to fall down during next 5 weeks?

Thanks for sharing your experiences!
Kelvin
05/11/2011 at 23:18
I'm there the first two weeks in January and expecting -15c of a night. That's going off the same period last January when someone I know was there.

Hope you get good weather if you're only there for two days.
Maciej Zgadzaj
06/11/2011 at 02:29
Thanks Kelvin. Essentially, what I am wondering is whether I should take a light down jacket with me (something like this - http://www.decathlon.fr/veste-bionnassay-down-light-id_8179041.html), or if a layering of up to merino base layer + micro fleece + fleece + soft shell + waterproof would be enough. But I guess that taking that extra down layer wouldn't hurt.

And yes, I am counting on a good weather too. Unfortunately this is the only time we have, so I am perfectly aware it is going to be a bit strenuous. Hopefully AMS won't kick in, but just in case Diamox coming with us.

One more thing I was wondering about - what I would like to do is a traverse of Toubkal, to avoid going down the same route as up. I am thinking about ascending South Col and descending the north one, however, looking at itineraries of many guide companies, if they do a traverse, they always go up the North Col and descend the south. Is there any specific reasoning behind this order? And does it mean that my version would be a bad idea?

Thanks again!
Edited: 06/11/2011 at 02:33
Kelvin
06/11/2011 at 11:27
I'd be heading up the North Col and down the South - the North is a bit avalanche prone and the traverse from the hut to the start of the route in the north Col is supposed to be a bit tricky at times. I guess coming down the North Col, you'd not have as good an idea of avalanche risk?

Hopefully going to have an attempt at the North East ridge myself, it's rated PD but most of what I've read has advised a rope is needed and I don't really want to have to carry the weight of one and wait for Adam to get out there for a few days.. We'll see. Got the other local 4000s to go at and wanna get up onto the Tazaghart Plateau to have a nose about.

I won't be layering anything like as much as you - I run quite hot and a long sleeved baselayer, 250g down jacket and shell if really windy will be all I'll need when I'm moving. I am taking a monster of a down jacket that's rated to -27c for the evenings however, it's a little bulky but the weight to warmth ratio will keep me happy. If I was doing a quick hit and run on Toubkal like yourself I'd probably leave it at home.

Best of luck!
huskyman
06/11/2011 at 18:51

 Having done Toubkal in Feb. I'd take a high rated down jacket, for to use at night.

 The temps. can drop to -35c at night. Even in the refuges it will be cold,not much in the way of heating, the guide companys advice is to take a sleeping bag rated to a minamum of -20c

 Depending on how bad the weather has been, the villages you normally leave from can have snow, one of the guides I know, skied from the refuge to Imlil in March and even using a 4x4 to get to Imlil had to leave it a mile below and walk up. 

 Wasn't quite that bad when I was there, snow line was about 1700m, but was still below 0c even during day.

 Hi Kelvin, how are you keeping? How's knee?

 Paul.

Maciej Zgadzaj
06/11/2011 at 19:05
Thanks again guys.

Actually, when I was talking about layering above, I was thinking about evening/night at the refuge, as I do not worry that much about moving.

I was thinking about taking that Bionnassay jacket mentioned above (with optionally all those other layers) rather than my Himalayan parka - considered the latter to be an overkill for Toubkal, although now hearing about that -35c at night I am not so sure anymore...

Or perhaps I should equip with something inbetween?

Thanks, and best of luck to you too, Kelvin!
Edited: 06/11/2011 at 19:09
huskyman
06/11/2011 at 19:33

 Even with layering, I'd definitely take a down jacket rated to -15c at least. After sun goes down, even in the refuge, the temp. drops like a stone.

 Went from -10c to -20 in around 10min.

 On summit was -26c at noon, with the sun, in a cloudless day.

 Enjoy trip.

 Paul.

Kelvin
06/11/2011 at 21:04
Paul - Knee is the best it's been for six years mate - the op has done what it's meant to do for now. Knackering the ankle in that fall a couple of months back was maybe a good thing as it let the knee have an easier recovery than I was giving it. Entering a 67 mile race in June, so gotta nail the training now, starting with a 33 mile in 10hrs walk somewhere in the South Downs in a couple of weeks time.
Actually feel pretty good for the first time in over a year... just gotta get the lungs up to speed now. Have a great time with Stephen.
huskyman
06/11/2011 at 22:33

 Kelvin, glad to hear your better. See your still doing 'stupid' things, like me!!

 I'm still at physio for mine!! Went to a climbing wall a few weeks ago and had to bail, just to sore. I did do dry tooling and that was OK. Must be in the way you use legs for different climbing.

 Have a good trip to Morrocco.

 Maybe c soon.

 Paul.

Michael Brabenec 3
25/11/2011 at 00:56
I went up about 10 days ago. No snow on top, a bit of ice around 3500-4000m but no crampons necessary. Night-time temps definitely in down jacket territory. Made a stab at the circuit 5 days ago and turned back due to 4 nights of shit weather and snow...and snow to the knees on pases above 3k. It was feckin' freezing and wet...

The Mouflons refuge (1st one) has a roaring fire and is almost too warm in the lounge. I was outside to save £4 and was pushing my 0C bag and layers to the limit to sleep comfortably. I doubt you'll regret bringing a serious down jacket in January - I'd take the Skyehigh1000 too, if i were going back then!




Maciej Zgadzaj
25/11/2011 at 01:36

Thanks Michael, appreciate the info! I finally got myself a Montane North Star down jacket, guess it should be enough for the temperatures there.We're sleeping in Mouflons, so the roaring fire is a very good news!

Also, hopefully that snow from earlier this week will consolidate over the next 2 weeks, and fingers crossed it ain't gonna snow heavily over that time - would be shame to have to turn back before reaching the summit...

Michael Brabenec 3
26/11/2011 at 22:14
Well, you sure ain't gonna freeze in that jacket!
Fingers crossed that the snow hardens...no scree to drown in!

It's probably no news, but you can buy both types of gas cartridges in Marrakech, white spirits go by the name of essence and all the rental gear is epically shit. If you're hiking in/around, the Santa Fatima trailhead is cheaper and guides can be had for 150/day...half what they cost in Imlil. Not sure what they're like though, we didn't use them. Crampons can be rented in Imlil and the refuge under Toubkal. £4-5 a day, but they're all big solid 10/12 pointers that belong on something plastic.
Edited: 26/11/2011 at 22:29
huskyman
26/11/2011 at 22:36

MB3,

 I agree with that!

 Scree near summit is a nightmare if not frozen, 2 steps forward, 1 step back!!

 Or slipping and sliding on way up. Nearly sliding whole way down.

Paddy Dillon
27/11/2011 at 09:55
I stayed in the Neltner Refuge after Christmas 2004, before the New Year 2005. There was a lot of snow, and even an avalanche. Ice axes and crampons were essential. Temperatures inside the hut were very low. Although the water didn't freeze for the shower, it was too cold to actually take a shower. One guy left a bottle of water beside his sleeping bag and it froze and stayed frozen for three nights. You can buy wood for the fire, but I can't remember the rate, and even then, you'll have to defend your right to sit beside 'your' fire until someone outbuys you on the wood market and loads their own wood onto the flames.
huskyman
27/11/2011 at 19:48

RE. Crampoms and boots, I'd recommed plastic double boots if you have them.

 Much warmer than leather boots, especially if having to stand about for a while.

  B3 boots can take any crampon, for Toubkal I'd recommend ones with front points, If route up from hut is iced over, you may need them, route can be steepish in parts, espesially if going by North Col.

Paddy Dillon
27/11/2011 at 20:06

A daft dog followed me and some other folks all the way from Imlil to Neltner, then onto Toubkal the next day, all in the snow and ice... and it wasn't wearing crampons.

The guys at the refuge wouldn't let it in the building, but let is stay in the wood-box outside overnight, and kept it fed with our left-overs.

I still can't figure out if it was just out for a lark, or whether it might have made a serious error of judgement by following us!

Maciej Zgadzaj
27/11/2011 at 20:56
My wife just went all 'awwwww!' when I told her about the dog, and said she'd be disappointed now if we wouldn't have it too (she's serious dog-lover). Anyway, that must have been some serious mountaineer dog!

Re boots, I'm taking my Sportiva Nepal Evo's with Grivel G12's, plus good socks and hopefully nothing would get frozen there...?
John Bell 7
06/02/2012 at 21:37
Just got back from 3 nights in the Mouflon, lower , refuge. Lounge was always 21.c or more apart from breakfast when it was around 13.c. the rest of the refuge was 5.c apart from bedrooms which were +3.c. The condensation freezes on the inside of the windows overnight but I was fine in an Alpkit 400 down bag rated -3.c. There are big heavy blankets and I reckon you`d manage with a bag liner if you wanted to save weight and not take a sleeping bag. The shop is well stocked with water and snacks at reasonable prices. Outside temp was -6.c on the night I measured it. They had running water at 1 sink and a western toilet . The toilet had to be flushed by filling a bucket at a tap in an adjacent cubicle but it wasnt a big deal. Showers were available but had to be prebooked as the guides have to move the gas bottles from the Kitchen to the showers to heat the water ! If anyone wants any up to date info please ask.
Kelvin
06/02/2012 at 21:49
I just used the ladies loo in January as that one flushed fine! As for the shower... still coming out hot and cold, so I had one the first week but not the second! I wasn't that brave.
That new fire in the Mouflons is fantastic and at least the logs are free.
huskyman
06/02/2012 at 22:57

Not revelent really,

When I went it was the coldist, snowyist winter on record. We stayed in the Netfler, no heat of any kind.

 We then dropped down and when for the NE ridge. Due to late start and me being slow, we had to bivvy at @ 3800m in a small rock curve. Temp. was at least -35c, guage didn't go any lower.

 Made the top at 11.30hr next day, bright sunny day, not a cloud in sight, -26c, scree still frozen solid. Decended by the N col ridge on to Imlil.

 Grand Taxi to Marra. arrived @ 17.00hr, temp +28c. Slightly warm for the down gear and layers I was wearing!!

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