It's certainly an interesting concept from Paramo, potentially challenging their main rival system (a 100w fleece + windproof + waterproof*) while being cheaper and more versatile than their own jackets.
People often say that wearing a Paramo waterproof is like wearing a normal waterproof plus a 100w fleece. I have found this to be a fair description for my Alta II.
So hopefully the Summit Hoodie is equivalent to a 100w fleece, although it seems a bit heavy at 560g**. If it is warmer than a 100w fleece then the combination is actually "worse" than a Paramo jacket in this respect.
* with the layers you can just wear base + waterproof unlike the Summit Hoodie and Fuera Ascent combination, but these should be much more breathable in waterproof mode like a Paramo jacket so it evens out.
** for comparison my Haglofs Gemini is a hooded microfleece and is 304g in size L. I also have the Paramo Mountain Vent Pull-on which I imagine is similar material to the Summit Hoodie and which has an "average weight" of 354g but without a hood. I would say this provides a bit less insulation than a 100w fleece. Maybe the 560g is just all the usual Paramo extra material, zips etc.
the 100w fleece refers to the perceived warmth and allows people to get an idea of what the stuff is like. otherwise you're comparing chalk and cheese.
i have a stretch fleece jacket which i believe was the prototype material for the summit hoodie. standing about it's about 100wt fleece warmth. in any other circumstance is is much warmer than a 100wt fleece due to no loss of performance - it's wind resistant and is more like karisma fleece in performance but not structure. it's surprisingly warm for what it looks like.
Glad to see that your are not too busy having your beard appreciated to comment on other stuff .
Fair enough on the 100w fleece comparison, but would you say then that the SH and FA combination would be warmer or the same or indeed cooler than a Paramo Aspira Jacket?
My point was that in order to make the SH a functional stand alone jacket I imagine that they must have made it warmer than simply the inner of a normal Paramo jacket. Not heard of that Paramo stretch fleece, is that like the Tiempo and Taiga or something else again? The review above doesn't mention the SH being windproof.
PS I am aware that being warmer is not necessarily worse, e.g. when it is cold!!!!! But you know better than I do the standard critcism of Paramo.
Would a 100 weight fleece + windshirt really be comfortable down to -20? The latest paramo catalogue states that the duo is "suitable for extremes of -20c to +20c... offering the equivalent functionality and protection of an Aspira Smock" this contradicts the idea that it is designed for worldwide summer alpine use, surely an Aspira would function well in Scottish winter whereas this duo would not. I love paramo and have a 3rd element jacket and a torres smock, but £90 for a 100 weight fleece seems a lot, I guess the logic of their pricing is that the 2 garments together would come in just under the price for a smock or jacket. A similar product and at a similar price point to the Summit might be the Patagonia R1 Hoodie or perhaps this Paramo garment is unique?
The Torrres smock is great value at a similar price to the summit, but this is because the pricing seems to be at a point that competes with comporable synthetic insulation by Rab and others. The high price of these garments relative to competetors seems to arise because Paramo is offering what it sees as a unique product i.e. directionality and matching vents. It is difficult to know if one should buy products like these when the only comporable product i.e. an Aspira is manufactured by the same company. An Aspira seems to be worth the money if looked at in terms of replacing both a fleece and a high spec. waterproof, but the Summit/Acent duo does not in comparison to a fleece and windshirt equivalent. It becomes to look more like a luxury purchase, when they are in fact designed to be the most functional of garments.
I reckon the SH is thicker than the liner of the lighter Analogy jackets.
The Quito liner is so thin and the outer fabric so thin, and there aren't any lined pockets, there is not much insulation on the Quito. It is also so light that when vented air can get well inside. It is much more able to handle into warmer conditions.
The size+ weight of the Fuera 390g isn't that much less than the Quito 500g and lacks the liner.
I'm sure the Quito is warmer than the Fuera due to the liner but the added insulation isnt much, and therefore the SH+Fuera will be more insulated than just a lighter jacket.
In my case, I already owned a Torres smock so thats my carried insulation to layer over Quito.
Have you thought of wearing a Fuera windproof over the top of your 3rd Element in bad conditions?It just adds a bit more warmth and stops the drafts around your underarm.
Its my understanding that all the current Paramo Analogy jackets use the same weight liner.The Aspira uses multiple layers in places though and also has a tougher face fabric than the 3rd Element.
I think your 3rd Element combined with a Fuera windproof or your Torres smock will cope with Scottish winters.Unless you really want to buy a Aspira.
The Quito reminded me the insulation effect of pockets, cycling/walking in cool temperatures there isn't much holding off the surface. So it is not just about the liner. Contrast with a Velez say which has a outer upper and an inner lower pocket.
The SH has its own pockets, adding to its insulation effect.
Also, it was posted recently also that the analogy jackets dont have waterproof zips and adding a windproof may improve water protection in wind+rain. The conclusion is carrying a windproof anyway is a good idea.
I'm back in Houston after a 9 day visit to UK and in the coolest temperatures I placed a down gilet under a Quito and in the warmest I just had a Pertex top, so those 3 garments sufficed.
wull elliott wrote (see)
I wore the summit hoodie for the first time today. Had a H/H baselayer, and the fuera smock over the hoodie. The combination worked really well for me. It did not rain but it was a crisp sunny day (honest...doing the cobbler) and I have never felt so dry and comfortable. This hoodie is good. I got the hoodie for £66 from go outdoors, but they did not have the ascent jacket - hence the absence of the that jacket. I am in no rush to get the jacket as I have a paramo windproof smock, and the combination of the hoodie and the ascent jacket is not intended for scottish winter - mind you, a lot of kit have this problem. I will buy another hoodie if I get it as a bargain.
danonthehill wrote (see)
On the -20˚C front, it depends, for active use in cold, dry, alpine-style conditions, yes. I've climbed waterfall ice in temperatures close to that, using relatively little insulation. But in Scotland where the atmosphere tends to be damp, no, not for me anyway.
Also, I think the Paramo fleece is warmer than 100-weight fleece, slightly anyway.
I'll get some proper reviews up in the next week or so, but one thing I'd agree with from the above is that the Fuera Ascent cut is quite boxy and the sleeves, for some reason, are borderline short on me, not a problem I normally have with Paramo.
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Well I think jackets like the Quito tend to puncture some of the reasons for the Summit Hoodie, because the Quito has all the features of the SH but is lighter. If you then need to add windproof ontop anyway to make it fully waterproof, what is the point of the SH? The sh+fa will have more of a too-warm problem when you need waterproof. Also, isn't a black colour (the only option) for "alpine use" a little silly, I mean your temperature will vary enormously based on the sun.
Is the SH less warm than a Quito? The material hints its warmer.
Also, if you're wearing a windproof (say the matching Ascent) and its getting so cold you want to insulate, the SH is a midlayer and not as convenient as an overlayer.
I'm in UK visiting and yesterday tried on a SH in Cunninghams in Ambleside. I didn't feel it was boxy or bulky, but was a heavy fleece. I did a windproofing test of blowing through the fabric, compared to the Explorer I had packed, and the SH is more windproof.
The hood is too much stitched, not a single unit but 3 panels with thick stitching on the above-sides.
It was better than I expected from the descriptions.
So my annual UK purchase was delivered on my doorstep, included a Summit Hoodie. I tried on 3 months ago and liked and now own. There is wee little chest pocket I don't remember but rest is as I remembered.
I have a feeling this will be one of my most popular most used bitterly-cold weather fleeces. It feels really warm and comfy, and could easily wear all day indoors to avoid paying for fuel, and walk outdoors as a decent water-resistant fleece and layer over with whatever for the day.
I got size medium, I'm currently at the maximum chest size following an aggressive cycling regime and its a little tight across my back but in the winter less cycling this should fit about right.
The handwarmers are high and warming, and having a small separate zipped pocket for valuables should mean not dragging and loosing items as you use the handwarming pockets.
Quite a degree of insulation variation between hood down, all zips open and hood over and all zipped up. I reckon this will go well below freezing under a windproof.
Its quite a close fit around my torso, head, arms, and for example a Montane Litespeed covers it perfect.
Being in black, will blend with anything.
It claims to be the pump liner for Analogy so I did my wateproof test, which is make a bucket from it with outside facing water, and keep filling to water beads through at the bottom. Water began beading through at 6 inches and a solid drip at 8 inches, for typical weights and pressure from rain that's quite waterproof, under a windproof to blunt the pressure it appears to be effectively waterproof.
Claiming to be a pump, I did the equivalent opposite. Place water on the inside and see if it would simply pour through - it didn't, it beaded and stayed put, so i wondered it needs time for molecules of water to get out, which it needs to do at sweating speeds, but it never seemed to shift from inside to outside, so it appear to be simply a proofed fleece? No capillary action? I did the same on an Analogy inside and it did the same, so it might just be a slow pump?
Its not really a pump in that sense Being waxed it simply can't absorb moisture on the inside face. Nor would you want it to of course as keeping the pump liner non absorbent is rather important to the whole set up.
The 'pump style' (well sort of capilirary action really, theres that handy thread about it round here somewhere) is what it uses to resist water trying to come in from the outside - and that does then work like a pump.
it doesn't "pump". the "pump" only refers to capilliary depression resisting water ingress from the outside. sweat/wet clothes/water getting inside dry out through evaporation which is very quick as the liner is so "non-blocking".
the proper liner actually has a slightly fluffier fluffy face - it's just brushed a bit.
"The handwarmers are high and warming" i wonder if they've changed the design. one of my gripes was that i couldn't get my hands in the pockets - i take a medium glove and have short fingers (too many bad habits i suppose)
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