The Walker's Handbook

At 0935 today I posted a message requesting help for a book that I'm writing. For some reason, instead of appearing first, I found it on page 8 and had to scroll down to read it. I've checked my settings and they seem to be correct including the 'Thread starting page' which is set to 'Default to last' (which I suppose actually means 'to latest' or 'most recent'. All other posts open normally. Can anyone suggest what has gone wrong?

To overcome the problem I'm submitting this post under a new thread title. I've written Chapter 17 Walking in Scotland which can be downloaded from here. 

It covers legal aspects, including access and rights of way, and I'm conscious that I tend to view them through English eyes. The Walker's Handbook is intended to be factual and neutral in tone and I want to avoid passing judgement and expressing strong opinions. Scotland's mountain scenery is probably the finest in the UK but wonderful as access is, it seems to me that there are considerable areas of the country that are effectively closed to walkers. It is true that there is a right to walk almost anywhere but it is very difficult to plan a purposeful journey through cultivated countryside. Or have I missed something?

So I'd be particularly grateful if Scottish members of this forum would download and correct and criticize my text. The comments of those living south of the border are welcome, too!

Thanks!

Hugh

Hi Hugh.

You might find that people are, not unlike on the biking forums, a tad tired of doing people's (your) homework / thesis / writing for you.

It's just a thought, and I appreciate that the walking community are a great deal more more benevolent than ever are the biking community, but you might want to consider this work your own and not a community effort, if in deed you get a reply below mine.

My advice: do the work long-hand, go out and research the book yourself, write the book yourself, do the Scotland chapter yourself so you know it's your work and not a.n.others.

Just an idea, maybe. You seem to be asking, perpetually, to ask people to write your book. Fundamentally flawed IMHO.

My understanding was that this was a new edition of an existing book Hugh had already written himself & he was after opinions, corrections & critique rather than OMer's submitting copy for the book?

With much benevolence.

RWM

Hi Hugh,

I'm unable to open it from this computer, I'll try at again from home.

As to this part from your post:

"it seems to me that there are considerable areas of the country that are effectively closed to walkers. It is true that there is a right to walk almost anywhere but it is very difficult to plan a purposeful journey through cultivated countryside. Or have I missed something? "

What do you mean by cultivated countryside? Fields with crops? Our access legislation allows access to most land. The code also states that:

The main places where access rights do not apply include:

• houses and gardens, and non-residential buildings and associated land;

• land in which crops are growing;

However you can access:

• land in which crops have not been sown;

• on the margins of fields where crops are growing or have been sown;

You are also requested to:

Where some land management operations are taking place, such as crop spraying or tree felling and harvesting, you might be asked to avoid using particular routes or areas for your own safety (see paragraphs 3.24 to 3.28). In some places, local authorities and some other public bodies may have introduced byelaws or other statutory regulations which might affect how you can exercise access rights (see paragraph 2.11).

If you wish to cross an area where crops are sown, you may go around the margins to do so. This of course will not be apparent from the map, and may require some research beforehand, as to the nature of farming in the area. Satellite mapping such as Google Earth may assist with this.

The full code is contained HERE

@ Fata

Hugh isn't looking to other people to write his book - he is, sensibly IMO, asking us to proofread his text for errors and to use our collective experience to ensure its accuracy and reliability. 'Hive mind', 'wisdom of crowds', the Wiki philosophy, that sort of thing.  A better book will result - isn't that worth aiming for and contributing to?

I find your post uncharitable and mean-spirited. What's more, I doubt if the majority of OM-ers are as pissed off as you are by Hugh's request for our input.  Those who don't want to help, or don't have the time or the knowledge to, can simply skip Hugh's post.

That bastard Skip wrote (see)

@ Fata

Hugh isn't looking to other people to write his book - he is, sensibly IMO, asking us to proofread his text for errors and to use our collective experience to ensure its accuracy and reliability. 'Hive mind', 'wisdom of crowds', the Wiki philosophy, that sort of thing.  A better book will result - isn't that worth aiming for and contributing to?

I find your post uncharitable and mean-spirited. What's more, I doubt if the majority of OM-ers are as pissed off as you are by Hugh's request for our input.  Those who don't want to help, or don't have the time or the knowledge to, can simply skip Hugh's post.

I have an old edition of Hugh's book... 1989 vintage... and I can see from the publication data that it was originally published in 1978, reprinted in 1979, then a second edition was published in 1980. I've no doubt it's seen further incarnations since then.

Anyway... there's no way the book could have been reprinted without a major overhaul. My edition doesn't mention any websites. Not surprising, really, since neither Hugh nor myself would have been crystal-ball-gazing that far into the future!

I think it's quite a sensible move for Hugh to write down what he knows, then put it out there for others to comment on, and I hope the process is paying dividends. Hopefully, he'll remember to give OutdoorsMagic a credit on publication... and mention the website!

Jester wrote:


As to this part from your post:
"it seems to me that there are considerable areas of the country that are effectively closed to walkers. It is true that there is a right to walk almost anywhere but it is very difficult to plan a purposeful journey through cultivated countryside. Or have I missed something? "

What do you mean by cultivated countryside? Fields with crops? Our access legislation allows access to most land. The code also states that:...>

I hope that you've now been able to open the chapter on Scotland, Jim.

By 'cultivated countryside' I mean countryside, mostly lowland, that is farmed for crops and grazing (another term is 'enclosed countryside'.

I've been walking from Land's End to John o'Groats and have reached Fort William and hope t complete the final stretch this summer. Advancing years and creaking joints require me to take the easy route along the Great Glen Way and then up the east coast from Inverness.

I'm not interested in a silly point-scoring debate about the respective merits of the different ways of exploring the countryside on foot in England, Wales and Scotland, nevertheless it has struck me quite forcibly that it is surprisingly difficult for a stranger to plan a purposeful route (i. e. from A to B) through enclosed countryside. When I walked from Kirk Yetholm to Milgavie, I had little choice but to follow designated long distance paths and canals that did not take a particularly direct route.

I'm now in the early stages of planning the route north from Inverness and have already discovered that most End to Enders put their heads down and follow the busy A9 just escaping from time to time along side roads, across golf links and the adjacent shoreline. Few paths are marked on the map.

I know, of course, that walkers have the right to walk around the margins of fields under crops and across pasture which gives tremendous freedom to local people who can take their time exploring. But strangers on a long-distance walk do not have this luxury because they have no way of knowing from the map where the gates and stiles linking one field to the next are located. Frankly, your suggestion of using GoogleEarth could work for for a short walk but is impractical for an End to Ender.

That is why I believe it to be correct to state in the chapter:

9     The provisions of the Land Reform Act outlined above gives
walkers a great deal of freedom to explore the countryside.
This works well in the upland areas of the country but, in
practice, it is difficult for anyone unfamiliar with the locality
to walk off-road in cultivated countryside.

10     The reason is that few paths exist. Walkers have the right to
cross pasture and go around the margins of cultivated fields,
but gates and stiles are not depicted on Ordnance Survey
maps making it difficult to plan a purposeful route. Anyone
who has walked between Inverness and John o’Groats will
have been forced to travel many miles on roads.

But if any of the above is inaccurate, I'd be happy to examine the evidence and amend the text accordingly.

Hugh

Walkers have the right to cross pasture and go around the margins of cultivated fields, but gates and stiles are not depicted on Ordnance Survey maps making it difficult to plan a purposeful route.

If you're willing/able to climb over fences with a bit of care then stiles and gates become a convenience rather than a necessity. I certainly find myself climing over a fair few in the course of getting about.

Fences and walls on farmland are generally about keeping animals in/out, and as long as you take suitable care not to damage either them or yourself it should be okay: From http://www.mcofs.org.uk/know-the-code.asp

Gates, Fences, Dykes and Hedges
Use a gate if one is provided and leave it as you found it. If no alternative exists and you have to climb over one of these structures, avoid causing damage - cross near a vertical post or climb a gate at the hinge end. Land managers should not lock gates or build fences across a path without reasonable cause - this would be viewed as an unreasonable obstruction. Electric fencing and barbed wire are needed but should allow for protection at access points. 

Of course it still needs practical application of Clue.  If your map doesn't have a Very Large Angry Bull marked on it, but it turns out there is one, it's up to you to decide whether he may be amenable to you crossing his field...

It's still not going to be ideal, but then again we can't realistically expect it would be.  Farms are laid out to make farming as easy as possible and the fact that we're allowed round the edges of the fields is a bonus.

Pete.

I guess it all comes down to what walkers are most comfortable doing...

Walkers who are flexible and are prepared to make things up as they go along, should be able to figure out the best way across fields, keeping a lookout for handy gates, or at least gaps in walls or low-slung fences that are fairly easy to cross. This approach works fine for me.

Walkers who want to be able to plan all the fine detail of their routes in advance are basically scuppered, as maps just don't show that sort of detail in Scotland. A compromise might be to view Google Earth views. This wont reveal gates or stiles, but it might indicate trodden paths across fields, used by tractors and/or animals, which should suggest gaps or gates wherever fences and walls are encountered. (You can tell I've done this, can't you?)

Hugh Westacott wrote (see)

By 'cultivated countryside' I mean countryside, mostly lowland, that is farmed for crops and grazing (another term is 'enclosed countryside'.

I know, of course, that walkers have the right to walk around the margins of fields under crops and across pasture which gives tremendous freedom to local people who can take their time exploring. But strangers on a long-distance walk do not have this luxury because they have no way of knowing from the map where the gates and stiles linking one field to the next are located. Frankly, your suggestion of using GoogleEarth could work for for a short walk but is impractical for an End to Ender.

Hugh

Hugh, I think you in danger of making this much more complicated than it is. In general the only place you would have difficulty in planning a direct route would be where crops have been planted. In areas where there are beasts you can pretty much cross in any direction. Unless you are in such an area, such as East Lothian or Fife which have a lot of this type of land, it is rarely an issue.

Cont:

What you appear to be looking for is a laid down list of paths, whereby you can plot a start and a finish, with the assumption there will be a gate/stile at either end, so you do not have to climb over. This does not exist. I would suggest again that where there may be some doubt as to access over some stretches you consult google earth.

As you have stated in the chapter you can obtain right of way information from Scotways. I have found them to be helpfull, I am sure if someone were to contact them asking details of rights of way on a proposed route between X and Y they would do so. having said that if a land manager has closed or blocked a right of way, and this is in dispute, or has not yet been reported, what do you do?

I walk a lot here, and planning seldom involves looking for gates and stiles.I recently did a walk which involved crossing land grazed by animals. The route was fairly direct, using gates where I saw them, or climbing fences where necessary. One of the major problems in this locality, which I have raised with my MSP, is that of land managers using electric fencing, which is seldom if ever marked, crosses rights of way, or runsalongside public road or rights of way, both of which are illegal.

Some points on the text:

4 Access rights apply to:
a) Fields (except grassland cultivated for hay or silage
if it is above ankle height).
b) Field margins (headlands).
c) Unsown ground in arable fields such as the
‘tramlines’ made by tractor wheels.
d) Lightweight, wild camping for small numbers of
people for two or three nights in one place.

 There is nothing in the access code or accompanying advice that limits the amount of people or the time which they may spend there. Lightweight camping is allowed while exercising access rights may be more accurate.

There are exeptions allowed, camping is banned on the east shore of Loch Lomond from 1st March to 31st October, details can be found HERE.

5 Walkers should honour reasonable requests to minimize disturbance,
or avoid areas where certain activities are taking place including:
a) Shooting for deer, grouse or pheasants. Information about is available from the Hillphones Service www.hillphones.info).

Not all estates participate in hillphones, and research may have to be done online to identify which estates cover which areas.

 The provisions of the Land Reform Act outlined above gives
walkers a great deal of freedom to explore the countryside.
This works well in the upland areas of the country but, in
practice, it is difficult for anyone unfamiliar with the locality
to walk off-road in cultivated countryside.

This works well across the country as I said, but it may be difficult to PLAN off road walking in cultivated countryside.

The reason is that few paths exist. Walkers have the right to
cross pasture and go around the margins of cultivated fields,
but gates and stiles are not depicted on Ordnance Survey
maps making it difficult to plan a purposeful route. Anyone
who has walked between Inverness and John o’Groats will
have been forced to travel many miles on roads.

Paths DO exist, as I said, there is no database as such.

> Paths DO exist, as I said, there is no database as such.

As I said on the earlier thread, I think this is the problem Hugh is having; there are paths on the ground, and you have a right to use them.  The problem is, in contrast with the rights of way in England & Wales, which are marked on maps, these paths are not necessarily shown on maps of Scotland, so, as someone trying to plan a route with a map, it's hard to know where paths run, and thus hard to plan a convenient route.  It's the difficulty of planning that Hugh is concerned about, not any perceived lack of access.

Your reply acknowledges the difficulty of planning, so it seems Hugh's concern is well-founded, and needs explaining to the reader.

It's a downside of having largely free access; there are no definitive RoWs to mark on a map, so you don't mark them.  So a map reader won't know where the paths are from looking at the map...

Jester* wrote (see)

Some points on the text:

4 Access rights apply to:
a) Fields (except grassland cultivated for hay or silage
if it is above ankle height).
b) Field margins (headlands).
c) Unsown ground in arable fields such as the
‘tramlines’ made by tractor wheels.
d) Lightweight, wild camping for small numbers of
people for two or three nights in one place.

captain paranoia wrote (see)

> Paths DO exist, as I said, there is no database as such.

As I said on the earlier thread, I think this is the problem Hugh is having; there are paths on the ground, and you have a right to use them.  The problem is, in contrast with the rights of way in England & Wales, which are marked on maps, these paths are not necessarily shown on maps of Scotland, so, as someone trying to plan a route with a map, it's hard to know where paths run, and thus hard to plan a convenient route.  It's the difficulty of planning that Hugh is concerned about, not any perceived lack of access.

Your reply acknowledges the difficulty of planning, so it seems Hugh's concern is well-founded, and needs explaining to the reader.

It's a downside of having largely free access; there are no definitive RoWs to mark on a map, so you don't mark them.  So a map reader won't know where the paths are from looking at the map...

I'm very grateful to everyone who has read and commented on the chapter dealing with walking n Scotland. Like most English walkers I got to Scotland for its glorious mountain scenery, not its cultivated countryside (I have plenty of that on my doorstep!).

In reading your responses, I'm left wit the impression that fences are much more common in Scotland than they are in England. I'm used to fields enclosed by walls and impenetrable hedges; there are fewer fences. If my suppositin is correct then I can see that navigating through fields could be much easier in Scotland than it is in England.

Pete: you state Of course it still needs practical application of Clue. What is Clue? (Or do you mean Cluedo?)

Here are paragraphs of my text which I have amended. I've tried to incorporate all your suggestions and but please let me know if further clarification is required.

4    d)    Lightweight, wild camping. (The Mountaineering Council of Scotland recommends that groups should be small and to camp no more than three nights in one place.) Local authorities have the power to pass by-laws restricting camping. It is banned on the east shore of Loch Lomond from 1st March to 31st October.

5        Walkers should honour reasonable requests to minimize disturbance, or avoid areas where certain activities are taking place including:
a)    Shooting for deer, grouse or pheasants. Information is available from the Hillphones Service (www.hillphones.info) but not all shooting estates are part of the scheme and it is wise to enquire locally. The main shooting seasons are
•    grouse: Aug 12 to Dec 10
•    pheasant: Oct 1 to Feb 1
•    red deer: Jul 1 to Oct 20

9        Local authorities have a duty to produce a core paths plan. These can normally be downloaded from their websites and can give you an idea of paths that are likely to be well maintained. Many of them are short and some are on roads.

10        The provisions of the Land Reform Act outlined above gives walkers a great deal of freedom to explore the countryside. This works well in the upland areas of the country but, in practice, it is sometimes difficult for anyone unfamiliar with the locality to plan an off-road walk in cultivated countryside.

11        Walkers have the right to cross pasture and go around the margins of cultivated fields, but as gates and stiles are not depicted on Ordnance Survey maps it is sometimes difficult to plan a purposeful route. Anyone who has walked between Inverness and John o’Groats will have been forced to travel many miles on roads.

 Again, many thanks to have helped especially Pete, Jester and Captain Paranoia.

 Hugh

> Pete: you state Of course it still needs practical application of Clue. What is Clue? (Or do you mean Cluedo?)

Pete is alluding to the phrases "having a clue about what you're doing" or "some people simply don't have a clue", i.e. the application of knowledge or simple common sense.