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Guy...
08/07/2002 at 13:22
Just a quick one really while everyone is thinking about ethics and all that with regards tot he 3 peak events.

Broad Stand for those that don't know is the rock step section between Scafell and Scafell pike. It's a climb really and awful in the wet or ice, now each year they are nasty accidents as people use this route between the two peaks.
The question is do you think it should have a ladder / steps on it as is the eupopean method or should it be left as it is?
Just a question, as far as I know no one is thinking about doing anything but it would be interesting to see what sort of thoughts people have.
Ninja Marmot
08/07/2002 at 13:27
Depends whether you think that making it into a via ferrata (or via chordata if it's a rope LOL) would increase the risk of accidents? I mean would inexperienced people be more likely to risk it and get in a pickle with it?

I am thinking about the walkers who stumble up to it when there's a rope handrail (that's been put up temporarily for some eventers) who have minutes later come a cropper because it's not a footpath and ends up beyond their capabilities.
Ninja Marmot
08/07/2002 at 13:29
Also, when using via ferratae one should wear a harness and be clipped into the system; I don't think the average Scafell walker would carry the right kit to make it totally safe.

Maybe I'm being a pessimist.

Sorry.
St.John Starkie
08/07/2002 at 14:03
This is an interseting question of safety: the safer something is perceived to be the higher the risk of accidents?

On the long highways through the forests of canada there were many ungated, unguarded rail crossings. Each year there would be a few accidents. In order to reduce the accidents the authorities would clear away the trees before the crossings so that motorists could see further up the rail from a greater distance. The number of accidents increased because whereas previously motorists had slowed down as they approached the track now they maintained their speed or raced the train for the crossing.
On a similar theme if we were to replace car safety devices: anit-lock brakes, traction control, air bags and seat belts with a large metal spike in the middle of the steering wheel facing the driver if would ensure we all travelled at 5 mph 100 yards apart!

No ladder then.

St.J
Andy Wallace
08/07/2002 at 14:06
Leave it alone, the majority of people know whether they should attempt it or not.

Except that it might be worth erecting a warning notice that would prevent sensible first timers grom going there.
Hedgehope Aztec
08/07/2002 at 16:32
I've heard this thrown about before. The Europeans have more than enough 'difficult' routes, which allows them to 'protect' some of them, this doesn't just include fixing ladders and cables, but chiselling out hand/foot holds. On the other hand we have precious few such routes and should leave them as is. Shape Edge is another accident back-spot, so perhaps a banister? And before Joan mentions 'elitism', I'd probably need the cable to get up (Broad Stand that is, I can still do Sharp Edge). Can't say I'm much in favour of notices either, however down in the valleys along with the 'No Parking' signs would be a good idea. Trouble is, we're quite a small country (mountain wise). Let those who want to climb the harder routes enjoy learning and using the skills needed.

Now I really enjoy via ferrata, it allows me into situations I wouldn't be able to get to with my gammy hands. But the Dolomites are as easy to get to these days as the Lakes (took us nearly six hours to Langdale last Fri). It's not the ethics I'd argue about, more the lack of routes. Come on then Guy, would you (or anyone in WMTR) like to see chains/ropes/ladders on Broad Stand?
Orange Alex Ford
08/07/2002 at 17:01
Never been there, but to be honest I'd rather like to leave it the way it is now...We've been moaning about despoiling the "wilderness" (such as it is) in other threads, so lets keep the ladders and fixed ropes out, eh?
Lloyd Bower
08/07/2002 at 17:44
I've not done it, but know where you mean and would very definitely be against fixed ropes.
Dan G
08/07/2002 at 17:51
No, I'd hate to see a ladder there. I don't want to mention the 'c' word but at least they're subtle, a bloody great ladder isn't. And I agree with Jeannie that it would tempt more people on to it.

Echoing the thoughts of many I think some signs at the foot of the most used paths leading to Scafell saying something along the lines of 'There is no non-climbing route between Scafell and Scafell Pike' would be a better thing to do.
Guy...
08/07/2002 at 19:41
I'm torn between the two view points which was one of the reasons for the post to see others views, but it looks like eveyones against it.

side a) tell me that's it as bad as bolting Napes Needle or Kern Knotts Crack and that people using the fells should learn the basics and progress to whatever level they wish, if that includes being able to do Broad Stand then fine, if not then just don't go there. There are loads of climbs I'm just not good enough to do, so I leave them alone and hope that one day I will be good enough (please God please just five routes on the East Buttress).

side b) Lots of people do it who aren't up to it, some get up by the skin of their teeth and others fall to their death or injury. If a few steps cemented in might help them remain healthy then put them in. Would it really encourage more people? it's not exactly a main route and I supsect people would go with or without the staples and they would still have the choce to go or not which they have now.

I think I'm 90% leaning towards the "leave it alone we're British" standpont but niggling at the back of my mind is it's "only four staples , possibly five"

It's all pointless anyway as nothing will ever be done, but it is interesting to hear the viewpoints...............Now where was that fence I was sitting on?
Dan G
08/07/2002 at 19:54
Why will nothing ever be done?
Guy...
08/07/2002 at 21:06
well as far as I know no one has asked for anything to be done, it's just an interesting ethical question I've been talking to a few friends about.

Also if someone did put some aid up there would be an interest question of liability kicked up should someone hurt themsleves on it.

And finaly it's owned by the National Trust who try to preserve the Natural resource and are against bolting in the National Park as are the BMC
Dan G
08/07/2002 at 21:39
Oh right. Just many MRTs do do a lot of mountain safety awareness stuff so signage for the 'black spots' may not go amiss.
munroist 284 2
08/07/2002 at 22:23
Definitely not!!!
Dan G
08/07/2002 at 22:50
Signs where the paths start, at the road side. I didn't mean a dumb sign saying something like 'This is a Big Cliff. Big cliff can kill you. Please do not fall off.'

I love, utterly love, the fact that people get unbelievabley wound up over 'man's mark' in montainous areas, but when Snowdonia Green Key proposed removing those miles of car parks and lay bys from Snowdonia everyone went absolutely ape-shit. Hypocrites.
Dan G
08/07/2002 at 22:54
I mean, how the hell can a few cairns be more of an eyesore than nearly one thousand cars parked in the valleys below, in full view from the summit? Eg anywhere on the Glyders or Snowdon?

Of course, after proposing an extra car park in Wasdale, that seems hypocritical itself, but I'd only like to see a small one there, and only if the residents want it to distance the noise.
Si
09/07/2002 at 09:36
Dan, re your post earlier, what "c" word don't you want to mention? Sorry, just being my usual dense self.

Si(C)
Dan G
09/07/2002 at 13:06
Si! No! Ok, I'll tell you...



















































































































































































































cairns
Si
09/07/2002 at 13:30
Shh!!! not THAT word......

Si(C)
Orange Alex Ford
09/07/2002 at 18:57
oh dear...all I can add to that is...






Trekking poles!
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