Western Mountaineering Apache

I'll get on my fill-power hobby horse again.

The fill-power is a US rating, even if they are using European down. It would measure less than 850 using the European (Lorch test) rating. Mind you, some UK and European firms use the US method of testing to confuse potential customers.
It probably doesn't make that much difference in reality.

I'm pretty sure the Badger is a wider version of the Apache if you don't want such a close fitting bag.

Posted: 02/03/2010 at 22:37

Mike there's also a difference in the way WM measure their down. Most, if not all, other companies use a system of drying then blowing down with hot air (think hair drier) to fluff the down up to its maximum loft before testing. WM doesn't use the hot air treatment but tests it after natural drying. The result is the rating is below the rating it would achieve by being artificially inflated and more relevant to real world conditions - hence the feeling that it's warmer than its rating.

Posted: 02/03/2010 at 22:45

I understand that Dave. I'm in no way having a go at Western Mountaineering bags. I know they are fantastic bags, and are noted for being conservative in their ratings. Surely it isn't too much trouble to say if a fill-power is from using the US or EU method though?

 Like i said, it's a pet hate of mine when the testing method isn't stated. I can be a bit anal when it comes to gear, especially down. I probably spend far too much time studying the subject.

Hope everything is going well for you by the way.

Posted: 02/03/2010 at 23:09

I actually deliberately avoided getting into the whole fill power debate because as far as I can see, the bag simply works superbly and whether the down is XXX + or YYY + is a bit of a moot point. [I'll edit the article to make the details clear later on though].

It's a bit like lab tests for Moisture Vapour Transfer rates - 'breathability' - it's a starting point and interesting, but how a garmet performs in the real world comes down to a lot more than that.

Interestingly, I'm off to see Rab today and I'll have a chat with them about the whole area of down testing and production with a view to putting together some sort of article / blog post about the subject. There's so much going on with all this, for example, down stuff made and filed in the Far East in very humid conditions and then compressed and transported can lose performance in transit, which is why Rab hand-fills its top-end kit in Alfreton after having the shells manufactured overseas...

Posted: 03/03/2010 at 08:21

That thing about shipping down half way across the world and back certainly bugs me. Surely simply not sensible at all. Stitching the material together over there makes a fair bit of sense of course.

Certainly prodding the fractionally scary quantity of downy things available in Manchester has left me a touch unconvinced how well the down in some of them survived. 

Do RAB still fill any of their jackets in the UK?

Posted: 03/03/2010 at 09:31

An article on the subject of down would be a good idea, Jon. A quality sleeping bag is probably the most expensive purchase outdoor folk can make, and the more information the better.

Posted: 03/03/2010 at 11:19

Jon Doran wrote (see)

I actually deliberately avoided getting into the whole fill power debate because as far as I can see, the bag simply works superbly and whether the down is XXX + or YYY + is a bit of a moot point. [I'll edit the article to make the details clear later on though].

It's a bit like lab tests for Moisture Vapour Transfer rates - 'breathability' - it's a starting point and interesting, but how a garmet performs in the real world comes down to a lot more than that.

Interestingly, I'm off to see Rab today and I'll have a chat with them about the whole area of down testing and production with a view to putting together some sort of article / blog post about the subject. There's so much going on with all this, for example, down stuff made and filed in the Far East in very humid conditions and then compressed and transported can lose performance in transit, which is why Rab hand-fills its top-end kit in Alfreton after having the shells manufactured overseas...

I visited the Valandre factory on Niels kind invitation. Their down comes from half an hour down the road (or that sort of distance) and is filled on their site. They made the decision to move the sewing to a new site in Morocco a few years ago but staffed it with exisiting Valandre supervisors who trained up the local workforce and kept a close eye on quality. It really is a very impressive set up and Niels is a perfectionist at every level of the manufacture. Of course, there's a premium to pay for that but I'd rather support this kind of approach where I can afford to do so as its a lot more honest and transparent, not to mention resulting in products that are a joy to own.

Posted: 03/03/2010 at 18:00

My wife and I both have the Apache MF.  We've only used them once below zero, and unfortunately we don't know exactly how cold it was but our guess is between -4 and -8, and we were a little disappointed because we froze!  Maybe someone else might have had a different experience in the same conditions but I feel it is pushing it with this bag and colder than -4 to 5 degrees.  I wish now though that we'd gone for the Antelope which gives an extra 5 degrees for only 200g more.

 Apart from that it is a great bag. One point that is missed in reviews is that you can zipper it all the way down,  nice when it's warm then you can just let it stay wide open or even just throw it over like a duvet.

Posted: 04/03/2010 at 19:43

Why do so many gear-related threads go in this forum rather than the 'Gear' forum?  Just asking.

Posted: 04/03/2010 at 19:51

I suppose its where the 'reply to articles' thread thing (directly underneath the articles) must leave them

Posted: 04/03/2010 at 20:06

@KenG: was it "moist" coldness? If, then you have to calculate with a lot less ability to preserve body warmth, due to the increased conduction via the moistness in the air.

my tuppence worth

Posted: 13/01/2011 at 04:23